cross-posted from: https://lemmy.crimedad.work/post/138601
“That son of a bitch, Bibi Netanyahu, he’s a bad guy,” said Biden privately, according to Woodward. “He’s a bad fucking guy!”
Reads like a bloody Onion article.
Now say it in public and act accordingly.
Defend Israel, but not Netanyahu’s government.
Does defending Israel include extending equal rights to Palestinians and allowing the right of return for refugees and their descendants? Netanyahu or not, I don’t think an apartheid state should be defended, especially with resources that could instead be used to help with domestic issues in the US.
Yes, absolutely. Israel and Palestine are places where people live and community structures exist. They belong to the people who live there.
I actually believe a 1 state solution will be more stable in the long term. The defacto 2 state solution, with one under occupation will never work. The Palestinian vote should be enough to swing the Israeli government away from the right.
Restitution needs to be part of the process, but not at the cost of established long communities and stable communities. There is no magic wand to “make it back the way it was”. Communities are groups of people, not places. Focus on restoring the networks of people. It won’t be fair, but it might be the best option available.
To hell with divine rights and ancestor speak. Secular freedoms for all, before religious freedoms.
It’s the only way to peace in the region.
As to how to get to that point, I am terribly underqualified, but a Marshall style international intervention like what happened in Germany and Japan after WWII probably holds some value.
Why should anyone defend a colonization effort so badly off the rails and out of touch with basic human dignity? There has never been a reason besides $$$ to defend Israel. If we send Israel our addresses will they spread some of that sweet bribery our way? no?
Fuck Israel too.
Why defend an ethnostate?
Because ethnostate is just the excuse people use. Look at the demographics, it’s very multicultural in population.
But it’s leadership sucks donkey balls and there is way too much religion in their society.
cuz I’m opposed to all genocide actually
The Jewish people have the right to a home state as facing antisemitism has been a distinct reality of their cultural past. Of course, both Israel and Palestine deserve the right to self govern and their people the right to self determination. The civilized world shouldn’t accept genocide from allies either
Putting aside whether it is right or wrong, having an ethnostate doesn’t make the Jewish people any more safe. The proof is that Jews are safer in America than they are in Israel.
The Jews being safe in the US is sadly not guaranteed in the future, especially with the rise of Nazis here. The existence of Israel isn’t guaranteed either, but the thing that compelled many people to establish it is that Jews at least had some agency in their own safety there.
The Jewish people have the right to a home state as facing antisemitism has been a distinct reality
No. They dont. And stop pretending that the zionists speak for all jews. They do not now and never have. There is no threat to global jewery except from the theiving and murderous actions of the zionists. No one cares about the jews, they do however want 2000 years of zionist criminality and terrorism to stop.
There is no “right” to steal other peoples land and kill them if they wont get off it. There never has been. This round started in 1947 when that “right” you describe was rewarded with land by the UN, to be equitably shared with the current inhabitants. The UNs pity party for the nazi’s crimes is long since over. Take it up with right wingers if you have a problem with the fascists, but dont claim a “right” from the rest of us that doesn’t exist and never has. Your philosophy is simple troglodyte thievery and religious entitlement, nothing more or less.
Balfour was bad, Herzl was bad in 1896.
The Jewish people have the right to a home state as facing antisemitism has been a distinct reality of their cultural past.
No. No one has the right to an ethnostate.
The Jewish people have the right to a home state as facing antisemitism has been a distinct reality of their cultural past.
Do we all get free stuff based on our great-grandparents’ past, or are past situations nearly a century ago outweighed by the present?
Consider how your answer relates to climate change.
present situation is there’s millions of israelis so they’re not going anywhere, and millions of palestinians and they’re not going anywhere either. two states
No they fucking don’t.
I like Joey for a lot of things, but his handling of Israel is not one of them. The words simply don’t match the actions. They might decry Israel’s actions but quietly they’re giving them the go-ahead.
Do I detect a nuanced opinion. You do realize you’re posting on the Internet about American politics right?
Liberals can have a little genocide, as a treat. They’ve lost so much weight since segregation!
Right? Though I’ve often found those statements to be used to imply you can’t vote for the party because it’s a “treat”.
My intended joke was poking at this and it either didn’t come across or really hit a nerve based on the votes.
I saw Biden give a press conference about the hurricane, and as he was walking out the door one of the reporters asked about his communication with Netanyahu, and he said over his shoulder “We didn’t talk about the hurricane.”
I do like his sassy one liners.
People liked Trumps sassy one liners too, as much as they didnt want to. And Bush’s. The more brazenly stupid the better.
“But we’ll still give him whatever he wants. That AIPAC there frightens me”
AIPAC and Citizens United are actually frightening.
https://abcnews.go.com/538/pro-israel-groups-spent-big-oust-squad-members/story?id=113675889
https://apnews.com/article/cori-bush-aipac-house-race-missouri-568c1a84974b8ba176a8d27a8375de42
They are able to change the outcome of races with seemingly unlimited money. A spend of 8.4 million in a Missouri primary is absurd, and likely is a drop in the bucket of what is spent influencing the presidential race.
I don’t think there is a way to fix this either, since the people that should be writing laws to prevent it are the ones benefiting the most.
I imagine this is also happening in Republican primaries, so one can’t just vote differently to address the root cause. Both republicans and Democrats seem to be tripping over each other to prove what a friend they are to Israel. It’s really weird and stressful to be a US citizen right now.
It’s really weird and stressful to be a US citizen right now.
I can’t even begin to express how stressed I’ve been over this.
Anyone that has the misfortune of recognizing they’ve been encountering my comments of pure exasperation lately will attest to that…
I’m generally a pessimistic person, but I truly believe Trump is going to win this and the heritage foundation is going to be able to implement their plan to solidify control of the government.
Don’t give up hope. Harris is up +4 in Pennsylvania
Its pretty damn sad that we are being told to enthusiastically settle for the, “nothing will fundamentally change” candidate, in the face of obvious genocide and war crimes. But its hard to argue with the idea that a dem centrist beats a gop candidate. I wonder if that will ever change, or are we now permanently stuck voting for 5% better than fascism in every election.
I remember an Malaysian ex-Prime Minister was denounced by George W. Bush for saying that the Jews are ruling the world by proxy. Saying it’s the Jews is definitely extreme, but with these organizations and what we’re seeing playing out politically, it’s hard to say there’s no truth in what that PM said.
Not all Jews are Zionists.
I agree with that, and I don’t think what I said alleges that all Jews are Zionists. Mahatir is labelled an antisemite and openly critical of Israel. He claims to have Jewish friends however. Now I don’t agree with this old fart on a lot of things, and I definitely condemn the fact that he’s using the word “Jews” when criticizing Israel and Zionism. But when you have wealthy Jewish organizations actively lobbying for Zionism in one if not the most powerful nation on Earth to continue facilitating the horrors that we see playing out in the Middle East with no intention or desire of stopping, even when their own people are dying in the process, I find it hard to disagree that these Zionsists aren’t in control of the world to some extent.
I hope someday Americans realize that its not scary muslims that are America’s enemy, its the zionists, and it always has been since partition.
So you’re saying Israel actually controlling the US?
In a roundabout, totally legal way, yes they are. Technically it is a US organization that wants to strengthen US ties with Israel, so it’s totally not foreign influence /s
The last person to push AIPAC to be registered as a foriegn lobbyist group was Kennedy. He was murdered shortly afterwards. Unfortunate coincidence.
Literally…
This comment didn’t happen yesterday, it was months ago. And Biden still hasn’t changed.
And it still hasn’t stopped Bibi from pushing for trump
There is literally no benefit for loyalty to a facist government, the second you’re not 100% with them you’re 100% against them. It’s the same way trump acts
There has been a change in what he says.
But yeah, still nothing on what he does.
This country is 1,000,000 Onion Articles in a trenchcoat.
In a trenchcoat, naked, flashing children in a schoolyard, yes.
And than he sent them billions in bombs?
And than he sent them billions in bombs?
It saves reporters time to just paste that info about more bomb shipoments to Israel into the “signature” part of the newsstory word processor and have the computer just tack it on at the end of every single story. Increasingly these news stories can write themselves. What a time to be alive.
Then*
Because he is. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck
Maybe stop sending them billions in weapons then, eh?
It’s so simple, even a random person on the internet with no knowledge of how any of it actually works has figured it all out!
Yeah! Just… break a decades-long agreement. There no nuance to this at all! No complications…
amirite?
There can’t possibly be any penalties or repercussions for that! I mean. A random internet citizen said to do it- so……
Easy peezy!
Israel is going to impose “penalties” on the US? Are you high?
What do you think happens when America stops supplying Israel? Think they’ll just stop attacking Palestine?? They’ve already said that don’t really need America chipping in. And they don’t.
So… when America just- stops sending them arms, the next bidder steps in. That’s what happens.
And that’s going to be either China or Russia. And they wont have any restrictions like America does. (And before you say “what restrictions” I’d urge you to try and understand what’s involved in the pact). Russia and or China will absolutely allow them to decimate Palestine. And even help if necessary.
And if America doesn’t end up going to war with them over this, guess, who they’re all most likely turning their sights on once Palestine becomes a gravel pit?
This is just ONE example. There are MANY others. Pay attention when the experts on the sublet discuss this. You’ll learn something just as I did.
And lastly…. What could be done, at best, is America might be able to leverage additional conditions. And if you’ve been paying attention- they’ve been trying to do just that this entire time.
Again- nuance. Understand it.
So… when America just- stops sending them arms, the next bidder steps in. That’s what happens. And that’s going to be either China or Russia.
lol, holy shit
Man… I’m really done wasting my time trying to explain simple concepts to far leftists. What a fucking waste of time.
You really think China and Russia would give billions of free weapons to Israel?
I really think they’d go to someone, and negotiates would ensue. I can’t predict the outcome because I’m not an idiot that makes assumptions.
And again, I am not the one making these decisions. I’m simply offering an example of how it would be incredibly difficult to just simply- stop.
Which is more than anyone that’s countering the argument.
“It’s so easy! Just stop sending weapons! Break a trade agreement! No consequences at all because Israel is so well know as a nice and understanding nation!”
The US military-industrial complex does not need you to defend it.
It might well be more complex than that, but you have every right to demand from your government to put its vast resources to use in order to tackle that complexity. Given the severity of the situation, I’d say you have a responsibility to.
Seeing such a tragedy unfold and going ‘oh, my government probably has a good reason to keep funding the active genocide, I’d hate to give some extra paperwork to our bureaucrats by making a fuss!’ is very defeatist, to put it politely.
Demand as much you’d like. It’s a right to do so. However the problem is, we have assholes that are withholding their vote because their unreasonable demands aren’t being met. And yes, expecting a nation to simply just… end an agreement is unreasonable.
Because again- it’s NUANCED AND COMPLICATED.
And therein is the problem.
I’d love for just ONE of these people demanding we stop sending weapons to Israel to lay out a plan on exactly how to go about it. Because I’d love to see that! I’d LOVE to see it happen, because I HATE that it’s happening to begin with.
I’m sure the pentagon, the White House and even Palestine would love to see that as well.
But no. That won’t happen. Because it’s so much easier to just demand a thing you don’t understand, than it is to accept that what you demand is unreasonable in the context of what actually needs to happen for it to work.
And therein lies my point.
We ALL want that shit to stop. ALL of us. It’s a no brainer to want to end the supply of weapons to those that use them to harm innocent people. But saying “Look at me! I want the US to stop supplying arms to Israel! I’m a good guy! Give me internet points!” Isn’t helping anyone. I could do that shit all day. It doesn’t change anything.
Provide a seamless and workable plan to end the supply or stop assuming it’s that easy. Because it’s easy to say a thing should be done.
It’s MUCH harder to actually do it.
It’s not “nuanced and complicated”… if you’re a lemmy.ml shill trying to get Trump elected
I think the issue people arguing with you that you don’t seem to get is that not everyone does want it to stop.
You seem blind to that reality that there is a large portion who arent even looking or talking that people are dying.
Who think what is going on and continuing is fine, or even good or right. And those people are in the positions to even try to limit any of it, and wont.
You’re not arguing honestly if you really claim the reason no one in power speaks against it is because it’s too hard? That seems really unlikely doesn’t it? “It’s difficult and we’re looking at legal options” and “we will continue to arm and defend them” are wholly different.
You entirely missed the point of everything I’ve said- whether it be on purpose or not, I’m done trying to explain this shit. It’s a pointless exercise in futility to even try and have a nuanced discussion here.
You haven’t really said anything though. You just keep claiming “it’s complicated bro”. How? We’re reasonable people here, for the most part. If you can explain why it’s not simple, people might listen.
I’ve explained it already throughout this entire thread.
Soup is an absolute moron with a nuance fetish.
Every matter must be super complex because it hasn’t been solved…failing to recognize not everyone wants the problem solved because they benefit from it not being solved. NUANCE!
Either that or they’re a Zionist intentionally derailing conversion by finding new “parliamentarian says no” situations for why the genocide must continue.
Agreed. Soup is likely here to tire everyone out with his blather. He doesnt post anything in good faith and I doubt he beleives what he says. He is just a classic troll. Sad really. Best to block the user and move on.
The irony of you commenting this to a Lemmy.ml account
Its really not that hard, the US just has to lay demands down to Israel and follow through with them. You stop making things worse by doing X by Y date, if you dont we stop providing you one type of weapon you need least. If you dont do it by Z date you lose something more important. Repeat until they realise you’re not bluffing.
The problem isn’t that its beyond the wit of man for the US to figure out how to use its immense leveage over Israel, its that it chooses not to.
So I’m to assume you disagree with leading experts on the subject? Because NPR had them on a few mornings ago and they said exactly as I’m saying- it’s incredibly complicated and nuanced.
But you seem to know everything. Perhaps you should tell them they’re wrong.
I’m done with this. There’s no getting through to anyone here.
I’d love for just ONE of these people demanding we stop sending weapons to Israel to lay out a plan on exactly how to go about it
I’m pretty sure the answer you’re going to get is “1. Stop sending them 2. Profit”
Pretty much:
Canada joins the Netherlands, Japan, Spain and Belgium in suspending arms sales in the wake of Israel’s brutal military offensive in Gaza. Many other nations have said they will no longer purchase Israeli weapons.
It is.
It was easy enough for Reagan, Bush Sr, Bush Jr, and Obama.
It is easy enough to do again.
Seriously, do you have no idea about recent history?
“You expect America, with its history of breaking promise and agreement and doing whatever the fuck it wants and giving two middle fingers to anyone that doesnt like it… to break its promises and agreements with Israel to prevent a genocide? THE NERVE! HOW UNCOUTH! WHY I NEVER!”
Yet another person that thinks it’s simple and easy- while offering no solution.
So we throw away the “rules based international order” and return to the pre-1914 unilateral rules and all the brutal wars that bought? So much better, amirite? Might makes right, and we’ve got the might
for now!The US stance on Israeli leadership is decimating our ability to wield soft power influence. We are global hypocrites blocking ANY action, whilst expecting the world to fall in line to support Ukraine against Russian revanchism - even NATO members dissent from the US position. The global south is turning to China/OPEC+ trading blocs. They already tried to break the petrodollar, which would be a huge blow if successful.
Even taking a realpolitik approach, without soft power all those US military bases used for ‘power projection’ lose their local consent, and become occupation sites inside non-allied nations. The Muwaffaq Salti Air Base in Jordan is a chill spot for launching COIN drone missions - whereas the Conoco base in Syria is constantly under drone and rocket attack.
Supporting Bibi’s wars of aggression is a stupid play on multiple levels.
I never said it was good to support it (though I’m sure that won’t stop people from reporting me for being a genocide apologist). Only that it’s a very complicated and nuanced thing to just assume it should be easy to simply stop because we want it to.
Nothing would make me happier than to see the issue resolved and for people to stop being hurt. But that’s not for me to decide. With a vote or otherwise.
And that’s because it’s a very complicated agreement. Nations don’t just decide to break them. Regardless of your strong opinions on the matter.
Maybe stop sending them billions in weapons then, eh?
I see at least three actions in that statement:
- Stop giving them billions in free weapons
- Stop giving them any weapons
- Stop them
#1 should have happened a long time ago imo, if not used as a leverage to prevent an Israeli ground invasion of
Rafah,the West Bank,Lebanon, striking enrichment at Natanz. “Free bombs for crimes against humanity” is a bad moral play, bad politics, and bad diplomacy outside the US:Israel sphere.#2 Is politically hard normally, impossible in an election cycle. I hate it, but here we are in the house we built. Make FEC the only campaign funds - it’s OUR government, not the highest bidder’s.
#3 The US’s geopolitical track record shows that we’ll tolerate some awful, terrible people if they’ll get ‘on our side’ even if there’s a trend of massive and foreseeable blowback, the diplomatic corps don’t learn lessons.
And my point is:
- It’s more complicated than that
- It’s more complicated than that
- it’s more complicated than that.
What I’m trying to say is that none of us are experts on the subject. And those that are suggest that, guess what?
Yeah. It’s more complicated than that.
And I chose to believe the experts on the matter. But when they’re ready to argue music theory, I’ll eat their lunch. 😀
If the “experts” told you that Iraq has weapons of mass destruction, would you believe them?
So… those experts weren’t American. They were from the UK and Denmark.
Try again bud.
Since you are a person “with knowledge of how any of it works”, please share with the class what those penalties and repercussions are. Educate us poor ignorant “random Internet citizens”.
I don’t have knowledge of how it works. And that is why you don’t seem me injecting my bullshit take on how to resolve it. I don’t claim to know how easy it is to just…. Break a decades long agreement.
I do however listen to the experts when they say that it’s incredibly complicated and detailed situation that goes back decades and involves two countries that have had a conflict since 1948 officially, and predates even that. And that it’s not so simple to just…. Break a decades long agreement.
See?
That’s how an understanding of NUANCE works. You start by learning that you don’t know everthing, and finish with the understanding that not everthing is as black and white as you’d like it to be- that there will always be others that know more about it than you do, and that you should listen to them.
And no, I’m not one of them. I’m simply advocating that you seek them out and listen to what they say. Because I guarantee you, they’re going to school you on what you thought you knew about how to navigate geopolitical diplomacy.
We can all hope that the powers that be find a way to end this as soon as possible. But we’re not helping anyone by assuming simplicity where there isn’t any.
Your argument is silly. There are laws on the book that empower the State Department to block arms transfers to Israel. The only way this can be undone is if Congress repealed the laws, which is hardly likely.
So, what you’re saying is that it’s….
Complicated?
I think part of why you’re getting downvoted to hell is because your initial comment reads like “I don’t have the answers (none of us do), but I know yours is wrong. I’m not contributing any facts to show why you’re wrong, but because I feel strongly that you are, I’ve decided to be insulting about it.”
I get it, world politics is complicated. Absolutely no action on a world stage is without unexpected consequences. But that in itself is not an argument for arming an ethnostate we know to be killing civilians at an alarming rate. And the unexpected consequences would have to be damned severe to outweigh the known consequences of our current actions: if we keep providing weapons to Israel, those weapons will be used to kill women and children in droves.
No, I’m being downvoted because the majority of lemmy doesn’t understand how nuanced topics work. It’s all or nothing. “With us, or against us.”
It’s a hive mind mentality here.
With this in mind, it’s not a stretch to understand that one doesn’t need to know how things should be done to know how things shouldn’t be done.
Want an example? I don’t know the right way to safely jump out of an airplane is, but I know that doing it without a parachute is fucking stupid.
And this same logic is applied to the idea that it’s easy to just end treaties and agreements and assume there’d be no consequences. Those that have the power to end them- yeah… THEY know.
But I know, it’s SOOOOOO much easier to just fill in the blanks with whatever bullshit suits an argument than it is to actually look into it. I’ve looked into it. And as I r already mentioned- EXPERTS in the field have said it’s incredibly complicated
Lastly, I don’t give a shit about being downvoted. It’s an irrelevant and worthless carryover from Reddit that should never have happened.
It literally is as simple as “stop arming their military with American tax dollars”
What part of this is so difficult to understand?
Oh, I know. It’s because you don’t give a shit. All this performative hand wringing and “nuance” talk just serving to distract from the fact that another dozen kids got shot in the head today with American 7.62.
performative hand wringing
Is literally exactly what you’re doing by whinging on the internet without discussing concrete steps on how to actually end the arms agreement.
You’re right, they should keep supporting acts of genocide because doing anything else is just too darn hard.
Very well said!
Israel doesn’t get to threaten the world with our weapons. That’s why we have laws about this specific thing.
Soooo… what’s your solution? Solve the problem. Let’s see you explain away and solve something even experts in the field say is incredibly complicated.
Also. While you’re at it, go ahead and show your credentials that give you the authority to tell an entire administration that you know shit that they don’t.
Yeah so I used to work as a Civil Affairs soldier. So I know what is a war crime, what level is culpable for different war crimes, and the laws around the US giving different types of aid.
From our POV it’s actually pretty simple. Israel has committed massive war crimes that have literally indicted the Prime Minister. Even credible allegations of war crimes are enough to make sending military or cash aid illegal. The only things we’re legally allowed to send to Israel are food, construction material, medical support, and energy infrastructure.
So it’s not actually complicated, like, at all.
Okay, it’s think a “Civil Affairs Soldier” should already know this, but….
What do you think happens when America stops supplying Israel? Think they’ll just stop attacking Palestine?? They’ve already said that don’t really need America chipping in. And they don’t. So… when America just- stops sending them arms, the next bidder steps in. That’s what happens.
And that’s going to be either China or Russia.
And they wont have any restrictions like America does. (And before you say “what restrictions” I’d urge you to try and understand what’s involved in the pact). Russia and or China will absolutely allow them to decimate Palestine. And even help if necessary.
And if America doesn’t end up going to war with them over this, guess, who they’re all most likely turning their sights on once Palestine becomes a gravel pit?
This is just ONE example that makes it not so “easy” as you all think it is.
There are MANY others.
Maybe pay attention when the experts on the sublet discuss this. You’ll learn something just as I did. And lastly…. What could be done, at best, is America might be able to leverage additional conditions. And if you’ve been paying attention- they’ve been trying to do just that this entire time. Again- nuance. Understand it.
Oh no! You mean they weren’t genuine friends in the first place? So why would I care about them switching sides? If we couldn’t actually depend on them then we should be kicking them to the curb.
And it’s not about shutting down the genocide, we have other tools for that. This is about our culpability and sending a message of what’s required to be in the western sphere. This is exactly why the Leahy Law was passed. So we didn’t have to sit here and listen to cold war logic in the 21st century.
I knew this was pointless to get into. I knew it as I was doing it. But someone has to be the common sense counter to the rhetoric.
I said my part in this. I’m not going to debate you on it.
In an election year? That’s political suicide in the US to Harris by proxy, given how many people are brainwashed over there.
The majority of Americans are opposed to sending weapons to Israel. Even the majority of Republicans.
Supporting Israel for political gain is a vastly overstated argument. It exists to justify sending weapons to Israel.
It is very similar to the previous claim that Biden should not have been replaced because he was the incumbent.
The majority doesn’t matter because of gerrymandering and the electoral college. AFAIK the majority of Republicans are not opposed to it. A simple majority that might exist does not matter if the other absolute majority of the other options is bigger. You are also acting as if it wouldn’t be politicized and propagandized if suddenly one group started coming out against Israel, which would significantly affect polling from independents and break away republicans. Politics are a reactive environment, not a static one.
Support for Israel has been very high historically in the US. It is only recently where it has declined significantly, and not really enough to make it not be the elephant in the room. And I can assure you, any relation you see between this issue and Biden not being replaced is PEBKAC, that involves a host of very different issues that you are only simplifying down to be similar in your head. For one, the change from Biden didn’t result in another foreign state, specially one that has experience and weight with influencing US and western institutions (AIPAC ring any bells?), trying to influence US elections, rather, it dismantled the efforts from the foreign state already involved in election manipulation that were singularly focused on Biden, forcing them into disarray.
Drag thinks giving guns to murderers is the political suicide.
Tired and factually incorrect narrative. Grow a spine.
They didn’t stop to think: what if people don’t want to vote for genocide? Oh well, we won’t give them that option because genocide is an American value. See: native Americans.
Sometimes I wonder if Blinken dreams he could back to the times of the Wild West just so that he could shoot Indians and their food supply from the top of his high train.
He’s American, of course he dreams of murder.
Haha, yeah Blinken. After Blinken played guitar in some bar a few months ago and some reddit threads were overflowing with astroturfed comments saying he should be the next American president, I wanted to vomit. But clearly, the monied interests are planning to run Blinken for pres in the future. Thats the future of the mighty Democratic party. To do that successfully they will need to keep the American right on a crazy train so Blinken is palatable. Its going to be a messed up next 20 years.
More lies to make the rubes think he is against the genocide. He has done this many times before and its always utterly meaningless.
I am firmly of the opinion that there is SOMETHING Israel has over the US that is probably super classified and super damning. Why else would BOTH parties, in one of, if not THE most influencial voting season in our country, agree on supporting Israel?
For how much the Republicans stand with Israel (and how many actually don’t care about genocide since pretty much every Neo-Nazi is Republican), it should be the BIGGEST soft-ball issue to run on for Dems to oppose, being the party of “the rights of the people”. But they have the presidency and continue supplying weapons to them for their war engine. No matter how many words are said, actions speak louder.
They are the US intelligence operation in the middle east. They are an attack dog for the things the US finds important, meaning they agree with us on economic operations, and will go to war to protect it. Israel, Saudi Arabia, etc. These are all just countries who are willing to actively work in the economic interests of the US as it benefits them. This allows the US access to their intel, to put military facilities in their countries, to use new weapons systems through their conflicts. They protect the standing of the petrodollar.
The US doesn’t give a shit if a tiny, powerless, economically insignificant population, or a thousand, get wiped out. Preserving US domination is more important to the US government, and states like Israel will kill anyone in pursuit of that status quo. The only people they would need to have black mail on are government actors who aren’t willing to support them, there are not a majority of those, yet.
Seeing what we did to Assange, Manning, Snowden and others, it’s not exactly encouraging.
Yeah, you have to have access to top secret documentation, and make that public, before you get in trouble with the government in the US, by talking about their actions. While a serious issue, it’s not very comparable to simply talking about something that happened, out in the open, that has video, and photo, evidence of it circulating all around the world, getting you in serious trouble with the government. We can even openly talk about what was on those documents, without being swept away by the federal government, now that it is public.
This is just another person who has sided with one evil, and will always whataboutism for them.
The reason it was top secret is because it’s so egregious. Everyone who endorsed that campaign of persecution should be prosecuted and ousted, funds out back into Treasury.
Yeah, no shit
You’re absolutely right.
It’s religion. The Jews are in Israel. The Jews are the “chosen people”. Religion is retarded and it MAKES people retarded. That’s what they’ve got. Every American moron who is overtly Bible thumping or not is a vote in jeopardy if anybody says boo against Israel.
Religion was great when it was driving human progress around AD 1000, now it’s a fucking anchor slowly drowning us all.
Prayer does not empirically improve conditions of people who are sick. The most xtian countries in the world are the worst off by basically every metric. And yet, this brain cancer survives. Luckily we have flax_vert to convert us all or make us want to jump off our local bridge.
The israelis cooperate with Bidens fake “leaks” as well, and pretend to be “upset”. As long as the arms keep flowing and the American youth and left is held down-- thats all that matters. While I loathe Trump, captured by Russia and murderous corruption, I also loathe Biden, a lifelong racist misogynist liar bought and paid for by the zionists. Both are also idiots putting on a pretty transparent show. The fact that many americans eat it up and accept it as normal doesnt speak well of us as a people. The western order is truly dead and buried.
yeah it couldn’t possibly be that international relations in the highly contentious middle east make the problems so tied to religious fundamentalism on both sides that the players are ideologically driven maniacs who will never accept any form of compromise because without the unwavering support of their hardcore adherents they won’t remain in power.
I’M SURE THAT HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO FUCKING DO WITH IT.
You know if these assholes - both sides - would stop listening to their imaginary friends and look at the reality on the ground, we might have a chance.
As is, we’re fucked until one of these gaggles of idiots sets off a nuclear war.
but mmm yeah blame both sides, you’re just looking at both sides on the wrong side of the fucking planet.
If you think what’s happening in Gaza is purely religious in nature you have absolutely no clue what’s going on. The state of Israel has been illegally occupying Palestine land for decades. They have concentration camps filled with Palestinians where they commit rape and torture.
Palestinians are fighting for freedom from oppression, they are not fighting for religious beliefs.
Biden and the American government have been supplying a terrorist state with weapons as they actively commit a genocide. That’s why people are pissed. Biden is literally giving weapons to a fucking war criminal.
If you think what’s happening in Gaza is purely religious in nature
I argue it couldn’t happen WITHOUT the influence of monotheistic madness.
Pray tell, without the religious fervor on all sides, how long would any of it last? for fucks sake, be realistic
edit: and your thesis, that Palestine is fighting a purely secular battle - is absolutely absurd. Explain the atrocities on oct 6 without theology, it doesn’t make you seem better, it’s damning.
ffs people, stop with the silly fucking excuses
You’re building a straw man, you’re the one asserting that religion is solely to blame when it’s just a tool that’s being applied as part of a larger more complex problem.
This situation could just as easily have a secular socialist resistance fighting the colonizer, similar to some of the Kurdish resistance groups fighting ISIS and in Syria.
The reason for the conflict is that a colonizing state operating an apartheid government is committing genocide on the people living there to expand their control and territory. Illegal settlements aren’t there because of Judaism they’re there because of imperialism.
Religion is being exploited on both sides as an excuse and to motivate the people, but it’s not the root cause.
Illegal settlements aren’t there because of Judaism they’re there because of imperialism.
facts disagree.
“The outpost builders are often driven by an ultra-hardline ideology that demands Jews populate all of Palestinian land and force Palestinians out.”
Two thirds are ideologically motivated - Haredim or Zionists. https://israelpolicyforum.org/west-bank-settlements-explained/
How do you go from secular motivation to this? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_tag_attack_policy
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/hardliners-violently-expel-palestinians-to-expand-israeli-settlements-in-west-bank Eiyar insists the violence is caused by Palestinians refusing to accept what she sees as her biblical right to live on this disputed land, which they call Judea and Samaria, and that the only solution is for as many Israelis as possible to move here.
HOW THE FUCK DO YOU GET THAT MADNESS WITHOUT RELIGION?
BIBLICAL RIGHT?
So please, provide evidence it’s all secular. Religion is the root, it’s fucking rotten, it’s infected the entire region, and it’s only going to get worse.
You’re painfully ignorant. Nobody is saying religion isn’t a factor, you’re saying it’s the only factor.
We get it you’re an enlightened atheist, but that doesn’t mean things aren’t more complex
I’ve provided evidence for my thesis. all you have are insults and posturing.
have a great day.
You fall right into that “pick a side and get in line to accept whatever their consultants want or get bribed to do” fallacy. If every Dem had pressured the dem leadership by voting uncommitted, the dem leadership would have known they were going to lose and changed course. But people like yourself take whatever slop falls on the floor and call that dogs dinner enough of a democracy. Thats Pathetic.
feel free to vote for Trump if you think that’s better. Or there’s always Jill Stein.
Meanwhile, in reality, you assholes are gonna keep the fight going until one side makes the other side glow in the dark, that’ll improve things IMMENSELY.
Glowingly pathetic.
you assholes are gonna keep the fight going until one side makes the other side glow in the dark
wow thats insightful mojofrododojo, yes–its obviously Jill Stein voters and progressives who are to blame for the war in the middle east. Dont forget the youth as well, those scumbags.
/s
oh you see a peace coming any time soon?
explain it to me then. how do you de-escalate? israel wants to kill as many as they can in palestine, gaza, hell now lebanon, 40k+ dead, how do you get people to stand down after that?
pffttt… wake up child.
Israel? One way or another, by sanctions, threats, politics, or actual boots on the ground, they have to be countered by force. That means a French/Spanish/Turkish (or someone else, but it almost has to include the French) contingent a few miles in from the Lebanese/Israeli border with their guns pointed in Israels directions and orders to fire if they are fired upon. And submarines ready to fire as well. And then a blockade by allied countries with a demand that the Israelis stop the murdering and land grabbing. I dont think the US would fire on the French. And once a credible force was in play, some of the middle east might consider an oil embargo to help. The Egyptians wont take up arms, but they might be persuaded to close the Suez to axis (the Israelis and their allies) ships.
Visas to citizens of Axis countries has to be curtailed as well for American citizens to wake up. That will be difficult but possible. Cut off Europe as a holiday destination and Americans will notice.
Whats your solution, just keep giving Israel whatever they want and deal with the refugees from the area? Or just let the goyim all die? I bet you have no plan at all and just exist here to troll. Lets see.
nothing is going to change as long as each side is letting their holy ideals lead them into war.
both sides.
but get rid of bibi tho, that’s a first for any progress.
problems so tied to religious fundamentalism on both sides
No actually, its the nakba. Its always been about the nakba and the murders done because of it. For 800 years of the existsnce of the ottoman empire the jews and muslims got along perfectly well in the middle east, and that ended when the ottoman empire was disolved after WW2… So history shows us your idea isnt true.
yeah that explains everything. so why did religion hold so solidly through the ottoman empire then fall apart after it’s stability left?
why did the sunnis and shiites start murdering each other after saddam ran?
maybe without some very powerful base to threaten both sides into compliance, they can’t help but murder each other. because their religion commands it.
the UK sold palestine twice. once to the Palestinians and then to the zionists.
and those two couldn’t fucking make a paradise out of it, no, they had to start killing each other immediately.
the west has nothing to do with it they just simply set up the settler colonial apartheid state and gave it infinite weapons and constantly protect it from any retaliation.
oh yeah the guys with the colonial settlements aren’t religious at all huh?
lolwtf
mojofrododojo, You should do some reading about how and why Hamas was formed. It was formed with Israeli and Russian help to fight the PLO and the two state solution mandated by the UN. It was initially formed to be nonreligious but Israel insisted it be religious.
"…Brig. Gen. Yitzhak Segev, who was the Israeli military governor in Gaza in the early 1980s. Segev later told a New York Times reporter that he had helped finance the Palestinian Islamist movement as a “counterweight” to the secularists and leftists of the Palestine Liberation Organization and the Fatah party, led by Yasser Arafat (who himself referred to Hamas as “a creature of Israel.”)
“The Israeli government gave me a budget,” the retired brigadier general confessed, “and the military government gives to the mosques.”"
https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/
This was always about shattering Palestine, taking their land, and using the vagaries of religious conflict as an excuse no one would dig too hard on.
lol I’ve been reading about Palestinian history for decades. you schmucks bought the british bullshit about the land being yours. and instead of cohabitating in peace, each side chose to murder people. over and over again. you build a settlement, they blow something up, you burn down their farms, they assassinate somebody. it never ends because both sides are certain god is with them.
it will never end as long as both sides keep listening to their invisible friends.
What religions do Ukrainians and Russians practice? I thought they were similar.
They also wear shoes maybe the shoes are to blame.
As it always was and always has been, religion is used as a tool and an excuse but it’s not the root cause.
if shoes caused people to hate and murder each other that argument would make sense.
religion is the lever, put to the work of violence by amoral people, an easy task when they each assert theirs is the only way.
pfft. shoes.
a simple explanation for a simple mind
I’ll take that as a compliment. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam’s_razor
“The simplest explanation is usually the best one.”
all the tiny brained downvoters, looking at the simplicity of life and saying “no, that needs jeebus!”
What speaks louder?
Actions or words?
Fuck Joe Biden and fuck Amerikkka. ✊🏼
The fuck was he expecting?
Can we stop reporting on Biden or whoever else using salty language unless it’s something along the lines of “I’m cutting off the fucking military aid.”?
That won’t happen, both parties are bought out by AIPAC, just AIPAC will stop splitting the money and give it only to the one who doesn’t give them what they want. If a Democrat president said “I’m ending this here, enough bloodshed” AIPAC would fund the Republicans, despite how much Republicans hate Jews, quietly and publicly.
I’m not trying to defend the literal actual genocide, I’m trying to say the money makes them keep their hands flowing with greenbacks and blood of civilians.
EDIT: The two below, I blocked you before two for being liberals who have defended genocide and argue that somehow Democrats need to support the genocide and its a good thing that AIPAC owns both parties. Mainly soup is a troll who acts smarter than everyone else.
This is exactly the fact they never want to hear, and instantly ignore, then forget the moment you bring it up.
I think there’s a much more lively audience who’s votes could be won with the simple free act of stopping weapons sales to Israel or banning their use on civilian infrastructure.
Blinken does this to Ukraine on a regular basis literally to avoid escalation, to the point of absurdity like not letting Ukraine strike Russian military bases where glide bombs are being launched from…
…but somehow this administration is dumbfounded about how we can curtail Israel from blowing up ambulances and orphanages?
I think there’s a much more lively audience who’s votes could be won with the simple free act of stopping weapons sales to Israel or banning their use on civilian infrastructure.
The issue is that lively audience is mostly made up of those folks commonly known as “the poors”, and therefore their opinion doesn’t matter.
Glad the doddering old fool finally caught on. I’m sure we’ll stop sending our money and arsenal to Netanyahu any day now.
Day 1234 of “We’re working on a ceasefire” and mass grave #999 of “We’re trying to minimize casualties”
Exactly
A “bad guy!” My word, Mr. President, what next, we’ll stop sending them money? Have some decorum.
