• KoboldCoterie@pawb.social
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    24 days ago

    “During World War II, Churchill told the United States, ‘give us the tools, we’ll do the job.’ And I say, give us the tools and we’ll finish the job a lot faster,” Netanyahu said in the video.

    Yeah, that’s what we’re afraid of, and exactly why we don’t want to give you the weapons.

  • shalafi@lemmy.world
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    24 days ago

    So why can’t Israel support itself after decades of the US pumping weapons and money?

    I’m 100% done with Israel, and that’s coming from a middle-aged guy who was always a supporter. At this point, I honestly don’t care if the Arab world stomps them flat. Who could I possibly give a shit any longer?!

    So thanks for bringing the plight of the Palestinians into my worldview and trashing the country’s reputation. I get it now. Clearly.

    • Flying Squid@lemmy.worldM
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      24 days ago

      Israel can support itself. This is a huge con.

      The defense industry of Israel is a strategically important sector and a large employer, as well as a major supplier of the Israel Defense Forces. The country is one of the world’s major exporters of military equipment, accounting for 10% of the world total in 2007. Three Israeli companies were listed on the 2022 Stockholm International Peace Research Institute index of the world’s top 100 arms-producing and military service companies: Elbit Systems, Israel Aerospace Industries and RAFAEL.[1] It is also a major player in the global arms market with a 2.3% share of the global exports of major arms as of 2023.[2] Total arms transfer agreements topped $12.9 billion between 2004 and 2011.[3] There are over 150 active defense companies based in the country with combined revenues of more than $3.5 billion annually.[4] Israeli defense equipment exports reached $7 billion in 2012, making it a 20 percent increase from the amount of defense-related exports in 2011. With the war in Ukraine, arms exports reached $12.5 billion in 2022.[5] Much of the exports are sold to the United States and Europe. Other major regions that purchase Israeli defense equipment include Southeast Asia and Latin America.[6][7][8] India is also major country for Israeli arms exports and has remained Israel’s largest arms market in the world.[9][10]

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_industry_of_Israel

    • Shadehawk@lemm.ee
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      23 days ago

      Right? Benny nets has completely ruined any good faith left in the world for the jews after the holocaust. (by that I mean Israel, not Jewish people abroad)

      • Maeve@kbin.earth
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        22 days ago

        Israel has plenty of supporters. I’m sorry for the Israelis who view this with dismay and will suffer for it.

    • mozz@mbin.grits.dev
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      24 days ago

      I honestly don’t care if the Arab world stomps them flat.

      Standard disclaimer, this isn’t an attempt to excuse Biden’s support for Israel which is and has been unconscionable. But that being said:

      I think the possibility of Israel being stomped flat is part of the calculus that underlies American support for them. They’re surrounded by powerful enemies like Iran, and a whole unanimous coalition of nations full of military and political leaders who go to sleep at night dreaming of the lifelong stamp of heroism that would stem from being part of the holy alliance that finally wiped them out.

      Whatever crimes against humanity their “defense” forces commit and are committing, the TV scenes of Arab soldiers gunning down fleeing Israeli civilians, ripping down the flags in Tel Aviv amid burning corpses, taking city after city, fighting a 20-on-1 dogpile of a war that would end with Israel erased from the map forever, guilty and the innocent alike, would get played on American TV in campaign commercials for 50 years. If it happened under Biden, the Democrats wouldn’t win another election for at least a generation. Probably more.

      And it could happen. The world is not a nice place. Part of running the State Department is dealing in horrifying outcomes like that, and it happens every year in a few places across the globe, to people we haven’t taken pains to make friends and allies of (and sometimes even to people like the Kurds that we have).

      We used to love like brothers and sisters various leaders all over the world who did genocidal things like Netanyahu, and I’m sure we still do, but it’s not an everyday thing now like it was in the 80s and 90s. But there’s some kind of crazy disconnect that fuels American support for Israel. There’s a popular theory on Lemmy that it’s simply because Biden is evil and loves genocide, and certainly AIPAC is a part and simple racism and lack of care for dying civilians in the Mideast is a part, but to me I think one of the powerful drivers is the fear of what might happen if the rest of the Middle East ever got the idea that they could try to fuck up Israel and the US might not be there to make sure it didn’t happen.

      Let the accusations commence. Like I say, I’m trying to explain, not to excuse, and besides nothing in any of that above would have stopped them having the CIA snatch Netanyahu three months ago and deliver him to the Hague in a rubber sack with a note that says “We still love Israel but this guy can get fucked.”

      • Semi-Hemi-Lemmygod@lemmy.world
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        24 days ago

        having the CIA snatch Netanyahu three months ago and deliver him to the Hague in a rubber sack with a note that says “We still love Israel but this guy can get fucked.”

        Oh, I wouldn’t do that. Just drop him in the middle of Rafah and let him walk home.

      • koper@feddit.nl
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        24 days ago

        The scenario you describe is so far from reality that it’s hard to take as something other than a creative writing exercise. Israel is not existentially threatened at all. The IDF is far better equipped than all the other countries in the region and Israel was just in the process of normalizing relations with some of its neighbors, including Saudi Arabia. All the military support from the USA isn’t saving anyone, it’s just funneled there to keep the military industrial complex happy and kill Palestinian children as a byproduct.

        • mozz@mbin.grits.dev
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          24 days ago

          The IDF is far better equipped than all the other countries in the region

          Individually, probably so. Collectively?

          There’s a fuck of a lot of countries there. Some of them (Saudi Arabia) have bigger militaries than Israel even individually, and some of them (Iran) have lots of land and people and some certain amount of money, and lots of alliances with lots of rowdy guys with guns and rockets.

          Israel and MBS and the West being all buddy buddy with each other and fuck what 99.9% of the people in that part of the world think about it, is one of those things that can change.

          it’s just funneled there to keep the military industrial complex happy

          I won’t at all disagree with that. All the homies love big weapons packages. Whatever else is going on in the world, throwing over a hundred billion dollars to weapons suppliers is always a popular decision in DC.

          and kill Palestinian children as a byproduct

          I don’t at all believe that killing children is affirmatively a priority in Washington. I think that depending on the nationality of the children, it can be an acceptable item on the balance sheet to be factored in against other priorities. 😢

      • Cryophilia@lemmy.world
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        23 days ago

        But there’s some kind of crazy disconnect that fuels American support for Israel.

        Lemmy is stupid, so you shouldn’t pay attention to popular lemmy theories. But you’ve got it wrong too.

        Christians need Israel to exist in order for their prophecy to be fulfilled. That’s the reason for the vast majority of the support Israel gets in the US. They don’t care about Israel as a state, or Jews, or anything else. It’s just a practical matter. One of the preconditions for the End Times is Israel existing.

        • mozz@mbin.grits.dev
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          23 days ago

          That variety of “Christian” certainly exists in America but I don’t think they are as powerful as they used to be and I don’t think they are in charge of the State Department (I mean… not currently, at least.)

          • Cryophilia@lemmy.world
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            23 days ago

            You probably only think that because you’ve gone out of your way to exclude them from your life. They still very much exist. They’re a majority of people who care about the middle east in any way.

            and I don’t think they are in charge of the State Department

            Anything that popular has sway with the government.

          • Crashumbc@lemmy.world
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            23 days ago

            You don’t live here and aren’t paying attention then…

            Those are exactly the people in control of the Republican party right now and the ones Trump is promising the world to in his bid to get elected. (And become a dictator)

              • Crashumbc@lemmy.world
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                23 days ago

                But the Republicans have that power NOW. They don’t have complete power, but that doesn’t mean they and their policies aren’t affecting the US.

            • mozz@mbin.grits.dev
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              23 days ago

              You are correct. I wasn’t trying to be super accurate about it, just trying to make the point, but Lebanon is an important omission.

              • DragonTypeWyvern@midwest.social
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                23 days ago

                Fascists make the world their enemy and then claim everyone is out to get them.

                It’s actually a pretty core aspect of the 40k universe btw, just throwing that out there because no one seems to bring it up.

                • mozz@mbin.grits.dev
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                  23 days ago

                  It’s absolutely true. I’m just talking about how the US may be viewing the realpolitik of the situation and their interest in it, not saying anything about if it’s just or unjust. If you want my judgement about it, Israel did it to themselves this situation, yes, 100%.

      • hark@lemmy.world
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        23 days ago

        the TV scenes of Arab soldiers gunning down fleeing Israeli civilians, ripping down the flags in Tel Aviv amid burning corpses, taking city after city, fighting a 20-on-1 dogpile of a war that would end with Israel erased from the map forever, guilty and the innocent alike, would get played on American TV in campaign commercials for 50 years. If it happened under Biden, the Democrats wouldn’t win another election for at least a generation. Probably more.

        But if footage of what’s actually happening to Palestinians right now is shown then nothing happens? Their lives aren’t worth anything in the eyes of Americans?

        • mozz@mbin.grits.dev
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          23 days ago

          You broke the code yes

          😢

          It is changing slowly but that doesn’t do anything for someone whose child is dying quickly, right now

          Part of it is just the news. They would present it VERY differently and in a much more compelling fashion than they present what’s happening in Palestine today. But that’s only part. The average American also cares far more about white people and countries that are “our friends” than they do about people who are neither of those things.

    • Buelldozer@lemmy.today
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      24 days ago

      At this point, I honestly don’t care if the Arab world stomps them flat.

      You would likely end up caring a whole helluva lot when Israel hammers their red funni button and turns the capital cities of the attacking nations into glass.

      People can claim that they wouldn’t do it but THE use case for nukes is existential threat…and that’s exactly what you’re describing. Its in those exact situations that Atomic Fire comes out to play.

      • Maeve@kbin.earth
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        23 days ago

        That’s an interesting thought experiment you prompted. I think Bibi would hit the button before Kim or Putin. It’s a craps shoot though. Pun not intended.

        • x4740N@lemm.ee
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          23 days ago

          Who is bibi ?, I know who Kim and putin are but not whoever that is

          • Maeve@kbin.earth
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            22 days ago

            Idk, but it’s interesting to contemplate, especially since I just learned after I posted that that Kim and Putin have entered a new agreement. This timeline is certainly exciting, but I’m ready to jump to another!

    • Andy@slrpnk.net
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      24 days ago

      Yeah, and more importantly, Biden needs to learn the public component of diplomacy.

      I read his interview in Time, and it’s weird, because it at least gave me some aspect into what he’s thinking.

      He’s old as fuck. He has learned decades of procedures and standard practice in diplomacy, and he does NOT understand that a lot of it happens in the open now. Biden thinks he’s playing chess with all the diplomatic messages he sends along backchannels, and he has no idea that this is just an arm wrestling match now. People judge you by what you say and do transparently.

      Biden legit thinks he and Bibi are like cousins who grew up together who are having a tough fight, and Bibi is all fucking politics. He’d slit any throat he has to get what he wants, and he will bury Biden in a heartbeat.

      Biden should go to Israel, and in a public address announce that the country is turning a corner: it will be safer than ever, and America is going to assist with a long term peace process, which they won’t lead but will provide security guarantees for. And don’t tell Bibi any of this in advance. And when Bibi reacts, say that Bibi has lost his trust and that of the elected public, and they need to hold new elections before getting any new weapons. Get some 'nads, man!

      I wouldn’t mind a complete cut-off in weapons, but I also wouldn’t mind if they continue to supply rocket defenses or something if its part of a pressure campaign to send Netanyahu packing. I want Israeli prosecutors and the Hague to argue over who gets to lock his ass up first.

        • Andy@slrpnk.net
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          24 days ago

          That is very true. Joey Ayoub of The Fire These Times coined a phrase months ago for describing the mainstreaming of genocidal ideation among the public, which I keep returning to: “The Smotrich-ization of the Israeli public”. It’s real, and it’s terrifying.

          Still, my impression is that Israelis are in a weird, weird, weird place:

          • They are largely supportive of the war, but most want a ceasefire deal that would bring home the hostages.
          • They are largely furious at Netanyahu, though his support has recently started to go back up.
          • There has been enormous pro-democracy anti-government protests before the war, then there were demonstrations demanding negotiations for a hostage release that were supposed to be explicitly distinct from anti-government demonstrators, and there are also pro-ceasefire, pro-hostage demonstrations that are explicitly NOT distinct from the pro-democracy anti-government demonstrations.
          • Most Israelis don’t believe the war has “gone too far”, but also many Israelis feel that the war has been mishandled (largely due to the cost on Israeli troops, the economy, and international standing).
          • There is support for the IDF, but also fury and blame at the IDF for failing so catastrophically during Oct. 7.
          • There is also widespread anger at the far right for insisting on exempting the ultraorthodox from conscription, while troop shortages force middle-age reservists back into service, but there’s no clear indication that anyone has any leverage to impose on the far and ULTRA FAR right, who have been essentially governing Israel with smug impunity for months now.
          • And, overall, Israelis seem to like Biden a lot.

          I apologize that i don’t have sources for each of these, these are just a collection of insights I recall reading in the last few months.

          Ultimately, I think they’re largely out of answers AND being herded aggressively by a well-tuned state propaganda machine, which means that I think their attitudes are in flux. I think they could be led in many directions, and many futures are possible. Right now though, the most successful shepherds are Smotrich and Ben-Givir.

          Lastly, there are a few very small Palestinian-Jewish unity groups. These may look irrelevant considering their numbers are so few, but when people ask where we could find leaders capable of negotiating peace (considering most of the Palestinian ones have been killed to prevent any peace process), I think this would be where we’d find them. Despite their numbers, they terrify the far right. They face extreme threats of violence, and I think that reaction belies the threat they pose to Jewish Supremacy.

      • Cryophilia@lemmy.world
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        23 days ago

        Damn, it’s a shame that you - who are clearly so much smarter and more knowledgeable than everyone involved - aren’t running things. Surely no armchair general would ever second guess your approach to handling complex international diplomacy.

        I’m glad at least someone has it all figured out, if only Biden would reach out to you personally.

    • disguy_ovahea@lemmy.world
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      24 days ago

      I think we have an obligation to provide Iron Dome defensive munitions as long as there is threat of attack on Israel. Despite common opinion, there are plenty of innocent Israelis that are not behind Netanyahu or Zionism that deserve to live without being bombed, just like Palestinians.

      Edit: Those of you that paint all Israelis with one brush are no better than Netanyahu labeling all Palestinians as Hamas. Just sayin.

      • alcoholicorn@lemmy.ml
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        24 days ago

        there are plenty of innocent Israelis

        That’s complicated. Would you have said we needed to continue supporting Apartheid South Africa’s military because there were innocent Boers?

        When the Israeli national project is ended, then sure we’ll have a responsibility to ensure Palestine respects the rights of all people living in its territory.

        • disguy_ovahea@lemmy.world
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          23 days ago

          Ask yourself. Were you an American citizen when when Trump enabled the sexual abuse of tens of thousands of immigrant children, or currently while Biden supports the Israeli genocide? Has your nation’s government ever acted in hostility against your interests? Are you complicit? Do you deserve protection from bombings?

          • Maeve@kbin.earth
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            23 days ago

            I mean, distanced emotionally? Should we be judged and judgement meted out differently than we and our dubious allies judged and delivered judgement? I prefer peace, but we are a warmongering nation. I don’t want it to happen, but where I’m from, the saying goes, “if you keep picking, you’ll eventually get what you’re picking for.”

          • alcoholicorn@lemmy.ml
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            24 days ago

            No, but also kinda? It’s complicated. If someone had the power to help those immigrant children escape, it would be silly to pretend they must endure the continuing injustice for fear they might hurt an “innocent” escaping the concentration camp.

            • disguy_ovahea@lemmy.world
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              23 days ago

              What power do Israelis have in uninstalling Netanyahu? They’re protesting in the tens of thousands to remove him. It’s doing nothing. He was elected prior to Oct. 7 and the subsequent genocidal response. My point is, the actions of a government do not represent the entirety of its people.

              Netanyahu has a favorability of 32% in Israel.

              Trump is currently polling at 42% in the US.

      • Skydancer@pawb.social
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        22 days ago

        Can’t help noticing that you make no mention of providing similar defensive capabilities to Palestine. Kind of undercuts your argument.

        • disguy_ovahea@lemmy.world
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          22 days ago

          I completely agree that the US should defend Palestinians, as well as assist in their reconstruction needs. I was talking about amending munitions agreements. In that respect, I think the US should exclusively provide Iron Dome defensive munitions to Israel. They deserve no support in attacking other nations.

        • disguy_ovahea@lemmy.world
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          23 days ago

          It doesn’t matter if you look to the left or the right. There’s always a sickness that allows people to justify killing. It’s loathsome.

        • spartanatreyu@programming.dev
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          22 days ago

          Looking back at history, it would lead to more propaganda and more support for going to war.

          A population getting attacked only leads to that population wanting to an us vs them mentality and emotional knee-jerk reactions over rational responses.

    • DragonTypeWyvern@midwest.social
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      23 days ago

      I don’t mind supporting countries that actually need it but even if the IDF was completely ethical, and they’re not, they still wouldn’t need a single bullet of aid.

    • Match!!@pawb.social
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      24 days ago

      I actually had to pause and consider whether this could be some kind of pro-Bidem propaganda.

      • Linkerbaan@lemmy.world
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        24 days ago

        Bit of both but mostly propaganda. Biden has temporarily paused the 2000 pound bombs but other weapons are still flowing.

        Also Biden recently pushed through a massive F15 sale to israel.

        What people don’t realize is that the sliiiightest bit of not obeying israel will get one branded as Hamas.

  • Ensign_Crab@lemmy.world
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    24 days ago

    but that the U.S. should not be withholding some weapons.

    It should be withholding all weapons.

    • Cethin@lemmy.zip
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      22 days ago

      Israel does make some of their own weapons. (Have you ever heard of the Uzi or Desert Eagle?) Just not enough for their current goals. I’ve heard that proposed as a reason the US provides them so many weapons, to suppress the growth of their local weapons industry.

      • alcoholicorn@lemmy.ml
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        22 days ago

        Israel is the only country whose aid doesn’t have to be spent on US goods. The US created Israel’s arms industry.

  • alcoholicorn@lemmy.ml
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    24 days ago

    And yet Biden continues to send the weapons and money.

    It’s both malicious and incompetent. No matter how much foreign blood Biden promises spill, republicans will double it. By trying to appeal to “moderate” fascists, they’re just demotivating their base, while fascists will vote for the real thing over diet fascism.