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It blows our hivemind that the United States doesn’t use the ISO 216 paper size standard (A4, A5 and the gang).
Like, we consider ourselves worldly people and are aware of America’s little idiosyncrasies like mass incarceration, the widespread availability of assault weapons and not being able to transfer money via your banking app, but come on - look how absolutely great it is to be European:
The American mind cannot comprehend this diagram
[Diagram of paper sizes as listed below]
ISO 216 A series papers formats
AO
A1
A3
A5
A7
A6
Et.
A4
Instead, Americans prostrate themselves to bizarrely-named paper types of seemingly random size: Letter, Legal, Tabloid (Ledger) and all other types of sordid nonsense. We’re not even going to include a picture because this is a family-friendly finance blog.
The annoying “letter” paper size is for some unknown reason what windows always sets as the paper size unless I change it to A4 manually. Naturally if I forget the printer won’t print. US paper sizing - annoying me on the other side of the Atlantic.
File I’m printing: A4 PDF
Default printer setting in Windows: A4
Default setting on printer itself: A4
Setting that gets chosen automatically in the print dialog: Letter
The US also doesn’t officially use the metric system sigh.
The US officially uses the metric system…to define the US customary system of measurements.
E.g. 1 foot is defined as 0.3048 meters.
That was just ONE aspect of the adoption of the metric system. And that was done to make backwards compatibility easier because of long lasting legacy systems. Because some systems, like say plumbing in a home or city, last for a very long time before they get replaced or repaired. New plumbing installations often use Tubing like PEX which is metric. I designed and fabricated a dozen brackets for a US customer over the weekend for delivery today. They were made using millimeters as specified.
And if you actually pay attention to how the metric systems compares to the US customary, you would see just how closely they are related from the start. Which makes sense since what we call Imperial measurements predate the metric system by several hundred years.
Imperial is actually just a couple years older than US customary, it was predated by the “English units”.
Plumbing is still described in customary in Europe. You have 1/2 or 3/4 fittings etc.
Yes, yes we DO use the metric system officially. In the early 1970’s the metric system was made the official standard for weights and measures.
What we didn’t do was force everyone to use it at 3:11AM 11/21/1974. It was decided to take a longer approach and let the change happen naturally and it has happened.
Everything in the grocery store is marked with metric weights and volumes. We buy butter by the gram, soda pop by the liter and whisk(e)y buy the milliliter. And everyone is looking for that same missing 10mm socket/wrench. (Where does do those things go anyway?)
How much more metric do we really need to adopt?
Well, milk is still sold by the gallon, butter is still divided into tablespoons, nutrition facts are still defaulted to cups and ounces. Wood is still sold by the foot or yard, cars still measure speed in miles per gallon, people still know their height and weight in feet and inches and pounds.
Could be worse but could be a lot better, too.
cars still measure speed in miles per gallon
The American system really is something huh
Sorry I totally meant fuel efficiency there, brain fart.
The gallon of milk makes it incredibly easy to divide it into quarters. That makes it easy to simply double things - 2 pints = 1 quart. 2 quarts = 1/2 gallon. Two 1/2 gallons makes 1 gallon. This dates back to the days when you went to the market and told the seller that you want 1/2 or 1/4 of that container of whatever was in that container. Simple math for simple needs.
Your 1/4 of a pound of butter or one stick, (again simple divisions for a simple use), is marked with rough marks of tablespoons for cooking if you are using such measurements. But you are quite free to ignore them if you are using a scale. Not really any issue.
Yes, in the US travel distances are measured in miles. But that slowly becoming meaningless also. People, (no matter the units used to measure the psychical distance), care more about “how long does it take to get there” rather than the actual distance traveled. But, you are free to push a button and switch to kilometers if you choose.
Measuring height and weight in feet and inches and pounds is pretty much the only thing the medical system uses US Customary for. And I can’t imagine the sheer number of man hours and cost it would take to go back and convert all those medical records to centimeters and kilos. Somethings are just not worth the effort and cost for a minor data point that only matters only as a long term trend. (just like a single blood pressure is a meaningless data point but over a year may reveal a trend or not)
Each measurement system, US Customary or Metric, has it’s own advantages and disadvantages. To think one is better than the other is a chauvinism based on what you are most familiar with and nothing more.
The gallon of milk makes it incredibly easy to divide it into quarters
How did you reach the conclusion that liters can’t be halved or quartered? You could call 250ml a ‘quart’ if you wanted to.
Metric butter also has markings on it.
Those medical records should be stored digital anyways, and then it’s a matter of a few man hours to tell the computer to convert them.
Each measurement system, US Customary or Metric, has it’s own advantages and disadvantages.
Imo metric can do everything US customary can, but not the other way around, because it’s missing the simple conversions. But that’s it. Everything else is same same but different
I mean, a liter is very close to a quart, so it’s not like we’d be asking people to adjust their mindset completely. And ditching US measures means we could finally, once and for all, dispense with the nonsense of having a dry and a wet “cup” measure.
As for converting records, well, it would be trivial to display a converted value in whatever EMR system a practice uses while noting the values are converted and allowing display of the uncoverted data for validation. (Which brings us to the EMR discussion.)
There must be some invisible 10mm black hole just vacuuming up all the 10mm sockets and wrenches in the world. I can’t even tell you how many damn 10mm sockets and wrenches I’ve bought and I still only have one of each. Probably none. I haven’t needed to wrench anything in a couple weeks.
It’s probably part of the great filter.
It also goggles up tape measures.
The 10s are being held hostage by the 12.5/48.78 wrenches
Eh, letter’s height to width ratio looks better.
Not-super-fun fact: an 8.5 x 11 inch paper can be useful if you lack a ruler in an American office & you need to measure an inch or a foot.
If you fold the paper like in an image I’ll try to attach, the hypotenuse is 12.01 inches.
Edit: then you fold the 12.01 inch side against the 11 inch side to get a 1.01 inch measurement
Not exact, but good enough if you need to know your neck size to buy a fancy shirt online - not that I would ever waste my corporation’s time that way!
And most people here know that an A4 is 21 (exactly) by 30 (roughly) cm, which you can use (surprisingly) use for measurement aswell.
21x29.7
This number is permanently stored in my memory, just like 1€ = 6.55957F
Not only that, if you know your A4, you can do all paper sizes in you head: A3 has A4’s long side as it’s short side, and A4’s short side x2 for it’s long side. Rinse and repeat.
Not exact
The motto of the whole imperial unit system.
Oh no, it’s getting worse!
Not-super-fun fact: you can measure in metric with school notebook paper.
Each sqare is 0.5 by 0.5 mm.
I love how that OP’s solution requires an inexact technique to achieve an even less exact measurement. Like Americans really out here being proud of the stupidest shit
I use it a lot if i need to draw something that is x long. If you do a lot of graphs for example you can use the measurements on your ruler.
Correcting myself: 0.5 cm, not mm.
For graphs you can use graph paper with 1 mm grid.
Tiny nitpick: I think you meant 0.5 by 0.5 cm (or 5 by 5 mm).
Also there is coordinate paper:
1 by 1 mm.
Yes, sorry. You are correct
How does that work? 8.5^2 + 11^2 is 193.25, square root of that is 13.9. Where does 12.01 come from?
Huh. . That’s weird. I could swear I double checked my math before I posted this One Dumb Trick online years and years ago…
Found the mistake, I had skipped a step, updated original post
Oh, that makes a lot more sense now.
Oh, that’s simple and useful.
What a nightmare
My country (not USA) uses American paper. I hate it.
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Damn, you beat me to it.
idk why the image says “european”, the standard is worldwide. only north america and parts of latin america don’t use it afaik.
I know Brazil uses the A# format, dunno about other latin countries.
A Sharp?
no A-Hashtag you dummy
A-pound
AOctothorpe
nah that wpuld be A-£
Nah you mean A-lbs
Extra painful papercuts
Japan also has their own system.
Japanese use JIS but A size is the same with ISO so there’s no confusion here. For B size there’s slight difference in JIS and ISO, but as end user I hardly print anything other than A4 so haven’t encountered problems myself.
do they go down to A -1, A -2 and so on
Not officially, but unofficially there’s 2A0, 4A0 and so on. Bigger than that is rarely used however.
No just A0, A1, etc. A5 being for cards, A4 being the average used in schoolbooks and such, with A3 mainly used for posters, never seen anything larger in everyday life.
Ad posters on the street are usually A2 to A0
Wait a second if the bank app can’t transfer money how do they do it? Just barter with guns? Are the bullets like coins?
We involve third parties to help spy on our transactions.
It’s OK, they charge us for the privilege.
Wtf?
Also are banks just dumb or what? Has it crossed their greedy minds that they also can charge to make transfers?
What’s pictured there is when people use Venmo to pay for something instead of just transferring money between friends. The fee is paid by the seller. Banks already do this for traditional sellers in the US which is why you’ll see signs asking for cash instead of cards.
And tax evasion. But I don’t care as long as the tamales are good.
Do Visa, Mastercard, etc, not charge transaction fees in Europe? The only place I’ve been where there’s no transaction fees paid by the vendor is China.
I’m in Australia and it’s a mix. Some places add the surcharge to the bill and can use cc for as low as$1, some don’t and don’t accept payments that’s less than 2 people’s meals ( and also don’t accept split bills).
But it’s very very hard to find a place that’s cash only. It comes to mind empanadas, so I got a laugh at the other reply about tamales.
I owned a business in Europe. My bank charged me a pretty low monthly flat fee for card charges, so I would take cards for any amount.
We have a fee-free bank-to-bank transfer system that is based on pre-digital technology that takes 2-3 business days. We often call it “direct deposit” or automated clearing house (ACH). It’s often used for payroll and paying bills.
Now, we could probably make this payment system instantaneous relatively effortlessly (and thus useful for regular in-store purchases), but the banks lobby against this so they can continue to charge us fees and interest to over-use credit cards. (Interestingly enough, credit and debit cards all use direct deposit on the backend to actual transfer funds between parties).
This is all fine and dandy for most people because they simply can’t imagine doing things a more consumer-friendly way.
Your comment is all true, except - we CAN all imagine it, but as you pointed out, our unchecked hyper capitalism prevents it
We have a fee-free bank-to-bank transfer system that is based on pre-digital technology that takes 2-3 business days. We often call it “direct deposit” or automated clearing house (ACH).
Ah, right, kinda like SEPA Credit Transfer. You do need a persons IBAN which is a bit long, but their name is validated so you usually send it to the right person.
Now, we could probably make this payment system instantaneous relatively effortlessly
Ooh, cool, kinda like SEPA Instant Credit Transfer, which transfers money within ten seconds to bank accounts using the above mentioned number.
This is all fine and dandy for most people because they simply can’t imagine doing things a more consumer-friendly way
And that’s why, in the Netherlands, Tikkie took the country by storm. It is an app that allows you to use iDEAL (a web-based payment system, soon rolled out in Germany and Belgium as Vero) to send money to friends. Usually takes one pin and three taps to send it, and have it instantly appear on the account of the recipient.
I imagine it has also something to do with safety? Like, if it was instantaneous, that means you can do damage instantaneously, or a hacker might have fewer hurdles to go through.
Venmo, Zelle, Cash app, etc.
My last 3 banks all had ACH transfers in-app, too, so idk what they’re smoking
Yeah they’re just making shit up, and it’s anti American so Lemmy assumes it’s true.
ACH transfer to a friend’s bank account?
I assume it’s ACH, I’m at work and my job includes doing ACH work so that just kinda typed out.
It has me put their routing and account number in, then took anywhere from 5 minutes to a day to clear, p sure that’s ACH
Wow awesome!
A day isn’t cool, but five minutes is pretty much acceptable.
I’m in Aus and our transfers are usually instant. However if you’re transferring a couple hundred bucks or more, and you haven’t made a transfer before to a person, it will hold it for a day. I think to give the customer time to call and say the transfer was fraudulent.
I respect that!
I pay monthly rent in Australia with that, couple thousands and no big deal
And the ACH only takes three business days!
3 days? UK here, the other day I transferred money to my wife (different bank) while she was handing her card to the cashier at the supermarket. It took about 1 second.
Surely there’s some challenger bank letting you do modern stuff?
Hahaha! We don’t have fair competition in America, silly!
i just assumed people used 3rd party services for ease of use or faster transactions, seems so wild that you’d not be able to send money using your bank to me
here it takes 1-2 business day for a free wire transfer from one bank account to another, and you can do it in your banking app or on the bank’s website. you just need to authenticate with your online pin code. you can also pay 1€ to get a <24h transfer
it’s honestly much better than using a third party service, since pretty much everyone has a bank account, and pays using a card tied to that account directly
Brasil enters the chat
No fees transfer takes seconds, as long as it’s not international. People use it for buying groceries, clothes or paying for whatever they buy in the middle of the street from other people who are not businesses. Confirmation of payment from receivers end is immediate with a push on your phone.
All sellers can produce a QR code including receiver address and price to be payed. All bank apps scan and pay seamlessly.
Quite similar to India’s UPI system
Russia enters the chat.
Same. It is done with National Payment System of Cards law, which people usually call “MIR cards”. It started as replacement system for visa and mastercard, but evolved into System of Fast Payments/Transactions.
You can use it in three ways: enter recepient’s card number, enter recepient’s phone number or use qr code.
In Canada we have Interact e-Transfer. Basically all the banks colluded to make a system that allows for instant money transfer between banks using email or phone number as the recipient identifier, along with options for comments and security questions.
I felt like this was a huge step up compared to all the hoops and third party apps I had to use in Europe.
huh, yeah, i heard of similar things in the US
here it seems to be worked out through legislation though, rather than private deals, but that means it’s much slower to get set in place
Idk what all this talk is about - we have wire transfers in the US. I don’t need a third party to do it either, it’s exactly as you’ve described, I can do one through the bank’s app or on their website, and it’s free. It’s not as common though since the information required is: Name of the recipient’s account exactly as it is, account #, routing #, and exact name of the bank tied to the routing #. You can save that info though to make it easier to transfer the next time around - it’s very useful for close family and friends.
and it’s free
This is very uncommon in the US. Most major banks (I’m not aware of any exceptions) charge a fee for each outgoing wire transfer, usually $25-$30. Bank of America, Wells Fargo, Chase, and PNC for just a few examples I’m aware of, plus every credit union that has local branches in my area. Some of those banks even add a second fee at the recipient’s side for incoming wire transfer.
They often encourage customers to rely on third party services like Zelle instead for small transfers to friends and family. Many banks’ sites/apps can also handle transfers between two accounts that both belong to the same bank for free too.
SEPA is not to take for granted.
Isn’t sepa the eu system?
Sorry but bank transfers are not 1st world exclusive, it’s common place in 3rd world as well.
Actually, a lot of banking apps can be used to transfer money now, it’s just done through Zelle. We can also do a bank transfer using the routing and account number (at least with my banking app) but that I think takes longer.
Lol, people find the silliest things to be angry and indignant about.
I guess someone never used ISO 216.
Found the American.
What an idiotic thing to say in a comment to a post not written by an American, that’s complaining about Americans.
Sorry, ya lost me there, huh?
There are easier ways to find us! (get a map, ask strangers to point at anywhere but North America; the first incorrect answer or anger response will probably be one of us)
Aside from the 1 to √2 ratio, the area of A0 paper is exactly 1m². People behind ISO 216 thought of everyting.
Which is awesome, because every number up halves the size. This, combined with the standard way that paper weights are given (e g. 80g/m2) allows you to easily calculate how much a piece of paper weights: 1 A4 80g/m2 weighs 5g (1/2^4 * 80g)
Now it makes even more sense!
People behind ISO 216 thought of everyting
how to make a good standard:
step 1: copy from DIN
Well, Germans are pretty anal about standards (thankfully) and they do them right, so why not copy them?
The world would be a better place if we copied good things more often.
Imagine all of Europe copied Dutch transportation-, German prostitution- and Portugese drug-policies
From their website: “We’re ISO, the International Organization for Standardization. We develop and publish International Standards.”
Sadly, ISO in recent decade started to do bullshit. They don’t pay for standard development, they don’t employ anyone for standard development, they collect membership fees from national standards organizations, require payment to download most standards and don’t allow to copy published standards. Also they retroactively paywalled a lot of standards.
PC LOAD LETTER? the fuck does that mean!?
It means there is a tiny scrap of paper lodged in one of the uptake wheels in the paper tray.
fun fact: the length to width ratio of ISO 216, √2:1, is the same ratio as the tritone in an equal tempered 12-tone musical scale. If you fold A4 paper in half, you get a piece of paper with the same length to width ratio as before; analogously, if you invert a tritone, you get another tritone.
As famously read from letter-sized sheets:
I know it should be a fun fact but I can’t quite grasp it.
But is it a diminished fifth or augmented fourth?
Ackchyually…
That is fun!
It’s a beautiful standard that works wonderfully until you have to deal with any actual measurements. 210 x 297 mm - so easy to remember and divide.
Letter is 215.9mm x 279.4mm lmao
Good thing Americans don’t use metric, that sure would be an awkward size.
No it’s 8.5 by 11.
See? Easy. Also you really have to try to get your hands on something that’s a different size. 99 percent of printer paper is Letter.
First they (wrongly) complain about the metric version not being divisible while their stupid format even has a fucking prime number in it. Can’t make this shit up.
I think we’re on different levels. I’m solely here to make fun of both groups thinking they’re superior.
Apart from the simple fact that the metric system is superior in every way, it was actually meant tongue-in-cheek too. But reading it again it absolutely doesn’t sound like it.
99 percent of printer paper is Letter.
Maybe in America. Over here you won’t be able to find Letter it’s all A4.
Well yeah. The point is most people never have to interact with any other size.
Pretty much the same is true everywhere else though. A4 is just extremely common. All documents are printed in A4.
But if you want another size for a sign, blueprint or maybe a postage sticker it’s easy to get another size. If you want A5 just print the same thing twice on an A4 and cut it in half after or cut the paper in half first and then print on it.
If you want A3 you will obviously need a bigger printer (or you just tape two A4 together if it doesn’t need to look good.)
8.5" is not any easier to divide than 297mm. Try dividing 8.5" by 8. What is that? 12 pebbles and 14 glibglobs each?
1" and a sixteenth.
Don’t bother, it seems the metric are allergic to fractions that aren’t irrational.
^/s
Ah yes - a system that uses both fractions and decimals!
The only time I ever encountered letter was when I bought the D&D starter set.
I was confused as to why the paper had this weird size. Then I remember it being a game made in the US.
Excuse me, I believe you meant to say:
215 57/64mm x 279 38/96 mm
I don’t disagree! And in the interest of fairness I feel compelled to include an obligatory xkcd:
300-3 isn’t that hard to remember. also i don’t know why you would need to divide it. they’re both divisible by 3 if that helps.
i mean, i’ve never needed to divide the size of a standard sheet of paper - if i need a smaller variant, i can just fold it in half and cut it. when working with paper, it’s pretty easy to do physical math, and you rarerly need something that’s perfect down to the millimetre
regarding the size- it’s just something you learn through life. school supplies lists typically specify the size of notebooks and paper you need to buy in centimetres, so year over year, you quickly learn that A4 is 22:29.7, and the slightly bigger standard notebooks are 24:32
so year over year, you quickly learn that A4 is 22:29.7, and the slightly bigger standard notebooks are 24:32
Pretty sure you just justified Americans using Fahrenheit ;)
how so?
Arbitrary numbers become habit
A4 is rectangle with 1:sqrt(2) aspect ratio and 1/16 m^2 area.
1/16? That doesn’t seem very metric. They should have made it a tenth like everything else metric. That would be an easy system.
^/s
i mean, celsius has arbitrary numbers too - human is 37°c, ambiant is 17°c, cooking is 180°c, etc.
America got someone triggered over paper.
Shooting ourselves in the face to own the mets
