• WamGams@lemmy.ca
    0·
    3 个月前

    I once had a Republican tell me he was, “black woke, not trans woke.”

    I told him I didn’t know what that meant, and he said, “I don’t hate people for who they are, but people can’t just be whatever they want to be.”

    Cue the Nathan Fielder meme of him just saying, “oh… Okay.”

    • butwhyishischinabook@lemmy.world
      0·
      2 个月前

      Or that it specifically protects you from the government, not private entities that don’t want to hear their conspiratorial, hateful, protofascist bullshit lol.

  • SaintWacko@midwest.social
    English
    0·
    3 个月前

    I read something once that made a lot of sense. For the left, freedom means “freedom from”. For the right, freedom means “freedom to”.

    • FakeGreekGirl@lemmy.blahaj.zoneOPEnglish
      0·
      3 个月前

      I mean, for me, it means both. I’m a big believer in FDR’s concept of four freedoms: freedom of speech, freedom of worship, freedom from want, and freedom from fear.

      • Deceptichum@sh.itjust.worksEnglish
        0·
        3 个月前

        Freedom of worship shouldn’t really be a thing.

        Replace it with Freedom of Expression. It’ll cover that and so much more.

        • FakeGreekGirl@lemmy.blahaj.zoneOPEnglish
          0·
          3 个月前

          Personally, I kinda roll Freedom of Expression into Freedom of Speech. Because any form of expression is essentially speech, even if it doesn’t use words to speak.

          • Deceptichum@sh.itjust.worksEnglish
            0·
            3 个月前

            That’s where I’d roll religion.

            But to me expression is so much more than speech, it’s how you dress, how you present, how you think, how you act, etc.

            Religion is long term something we as a species should be moving away from. The other freedoms aren’t.

            • FakeGreekGirl@lemmy.blahaj.zoneOPEnglish
              0·
              3 个月前

              I would disagree. How you dress, how you present, how you act, these are all things that speak without words. I would call those speech.

              Truthfully, though, if I were coining the phrase, I would have said “freedom of expression” and “freedom of thought” instead of “freedom of speech” and “freedom of worship”. Both of those are broader categories that encapsulate the concepts FDR articulated. After all, what is worship but conceptualizing the deep thoughts about where the universe came from, and finding a community of like minded folks?

              • Deceptichum@sh.itjust.worksEnglish
                0·
                3 个月前

                Those two work for me, expression/thought.

                Worship is however simply repeating the propaganda you were fed as a child or a vulnerable adult. Hardly deep thought involved. I’d classify it more as a mental health issue, believing in something for zero actual reason, imagining things exist that aren’t real, etc.

        • FakeGreekGirl@lemmy.blahaj.zoneOPEnglish
          0·
          2 个月前

          Yeah, most people in history say amazing things and then turn out to be fucking monsters. Especially in American history.

          But just because they’re awful fucking hypocrites doesn’t mean what they said has no value.

          • the_crotch@sh.itjust.works
            0·
            2 个月前

            But just because they’re awful fucking hypocrites doesn’t mean what they said has no value.

            Fair enough.i also think it’s fair to mention what a dickbag he was every time his name comes up.

    • nifty@lemmy.world
      0·
      3 个月前

      Eh, their ruling class creates divisions to distract them from their constant exploitation.

    • Fushuan [he/him]@lemm.eeEnglish
      0·
      3 个月前

      well, all the examples in the image are “freedom to”, and are leftist viewpoints, so I’m not sure about that that statement.

    • Sloogs@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish
      0·
      3 个月前

      I’ve heard it the exact opposite. Freedom to is positive freedom which tends to be a more social leftist or social liberal trait. Negative freedom (freedom from) is typically a more modern right wing or libertarian trait. Basically enabling people via common social framework that gives people options and social mobility vs complete non-interference.

      Here’s a quote from the Wikipedia article on positive liberty that backs up this interpretation of the to/from distinction. (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_liberty):

      "Erich Fromm sees the distinction between the two types o**f freedom emerging alongside humanity’s evolution away from the instinctual activity that characterizes lower animal forms. This aspect of freedom, he argues, “is here used not in its positive sense of freedom to but in its negative sense of ‘freedom from’, namely freedom from instinctual determination of his actions.”

      I don’t necessarily agree with the premise but it’s an example of the to/from dichotomy being used in the discussion around freedom.

      • Hugh_Jeggs@lemm.ee
        0·
        3 个月前

        Strange take.

        In Europe, most want “freedom from”. As in, freedom from hate speech, freedom from Nazis, freedom from gun owning cowards, freedom from bullying, freedom from corruption

        Free speech is as outdated as handguns, if you want a peaceful life and happiness

        Guess that’s where all your problems are coming from 🤷

        • Sloogs@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish
          0·
          3 个月前

          I didn’t invent that take if you think it’s strange. Ironically these interpretations of liberty originally came from European philosophers, originally Rousseau I think, so take it up with them. 🤷🏻

          I don’t think they were thinking about in terms of freedom from hate but more like creating social structures in place to enforce people’s freedom in the face of something like hate vs eliminating any social structures that would not allow someone to hate whichever thing and whoever they want to.

          • Hugh_Jeggs@lemm.ee
            0·
            3 个月前

            originally came from European philosophers,

            Yep, hundreds of years out of date

            Times change, as do philosophies

        • dustycups@aussie.zone
          0·
          2 个月前

          Free speech (& freedom of association) are super important to a lot (most?) of us.

          Unfortunately some people abuse this right, making the argument that they should be free to remove others freedom.

          The paradox of tolerance is a highly recommended read written by the same guy who made falsifiabilty the cornerstone of the scientific method.

        • SuddenDownpour@sh.itjust.works
          0·
          3 个月前

          I’m pretty sure people everywhere want “freedom to” have a house, buy groceries and receive good healthcare, which are the most practical forms of positive freedoms in politics.

          • Sop@lemmy.blahaj.zone
            0·
            2 个月前

            That means that everyone has access to those means. Many liberals and most conservatives do not support providing free housing, healthcare and groceries to people who don’t work. That’s why it’s a leftist take.

              • Sop@lemmy.blahaj.zone
                0·
                2 个月前

                Ah okay. I thought you were saying that those takes aren’t political because everyone wants it. (Which is obviously not true).

                As far as I understand in Marxism freedom is understood as having all the means necessary to make decisions over your own live, like education, housing and healthcare. So ‘freedom to’ would be used in the context of having freedom to choose your own path.

                Freedom to have a house is in that sense sounds to me like an example of the capitalist definition of freedom from restrictions, because the freedom to have a house means freedom from land ownership laws that currently prevent most people from owning the land they live on (or claiming land for their own that isn’t in use if they’re houseless)

    • rolaulten@startrek.website
      0·
      3 个月前

      When I was taught it it was not pure left/right. Rather a method to differentiate levels of Libertarianism form other branches of liberalism focused on social justice (rising tide and all that). Any idea where you read it? Poli sci wonk phrasing being included into more popular literature is always fun to see.

    • chatokun@lemmy.dbzer0.com
      0·
      3 个月前

      In his deposition, Owen Shroyer (Idiot who works for Alex Jones, calls himself “the cuck destroyer”, and also admitted under oath in same depo that he is a puppet) stated that he believes the first ammendment gives him the right to say whatever he wants “without consequences.”

      This shows a lack of understanding (or deliberate will to understand) that no action is without consequence. It could be a good consequence, or a bad one, but by simply taking an action you affect the world, large or small. They just want to be able to do what they want no matter what it does to others and suffer no backlash whatsoever, which screams rules for thee not for me.

    • Midnitte@beehaw.orgEnglish
      0·
      3 个月前

      Or the freedom to choose whether to have expensive Healthcare or bankrupt yourself whenever you have a health emergency.

      It’s obviously not the freedom from health expenses.

    • Ragdoll X@lemmy.world
      0·
      3 个月前

      A while back on R*ddit I had this discussion with a “libertarian” where they defended the idea that a local government should be able to dictate people’s clothes. For leftists “freedom” means expanding and protecting the rights of the people, while for them ot literally just means “freedom to oppress others”.