FAQ
Q: why not organize and stop treating the bus as a legitimate entity? why aren’t you working to stop the bus?
A: do both. cut the fuel line. break windows. put oatmeal in the gas tank. but maybe your efforts don’t succeed this election cycle. and if so don’t fucking throw away your vote if it can help your neighbors fucking survive. “harm reduction” is not a political strategy for action. it is a last minute, end of the line decision to save lives, after all other resources have been exhausted.
Voting metaphors that don’t have people dying in either option are disingenuous imo. Like I understand the concept of harm reduction to a point, but let’s not pretend one of the options is something as innocent as “getting ice cream”.
yeah it’s more like driving into a bush versus driving into an active volcano. The bush gives you at least a 30% chance to survive.
absolutely agree. the situation is closer to driving into the grand canyon versus into the sun.
nevertheless i do think the intended rhetorical effect of the post has value, esp for those who don’t intend to vote at all.
I hear you. I think many people who aren’t intending to vote do understand the situation but just have a different moral take. Like, sure, driving the bus into a brick wall may save some lives compared to driving it off a cliff. But for the people that’d die in the wall option, they’re still dead either way. Shouldn’t we at least try to stop the bus from crashing at all, as unrealistic as that may be?
i highly recommend doing both, organize and vote
I say organize, vote uncommitted in the primary if you can, and do what you have to in November. But yes, agreed.
We didn’t have that option in the Ohio primary so I just left that space blank and voted down-ticket.
What if I’m obstaining from voting because my subdivision of the bus will always vote for the cliff instead of the ice cream regardless of what I do
Or, more realistically:
- 3 vote to drive off the cliff
- 2 vote for ice-cream
- 4 vote to drive off the cliff at a slightly reduced speed, having been assured that they might get to look at a picture of some ice-cream, but only after democracy has been saved
Yeah, I really don’t get this attitude on Lemmy. I get not wanting to crash the bus. But voting for the guy who at best will let the other guy crash the bus in the future or at worst crash the bus tomorrow isn’t the answer.
I first thought that Lemmy was a little more of the early internet forums I remember, more anti-establishment, anarchist, left wing, but there’s way too much “vote blue no matter who” which is the exact same mentality that has killed the Republican party. Is Candidate A an immoral shit bag? Doesn’t matter; there’s a D next to their name. Probably better than the guy with the R. Better not see if anyone else is on the list.
I can afford to vote my conscience. I live in a deeply red state, so my vote doesn’t matter, something Democrats could try to fix, but they won’t. Voting 3rd party does matter though, and it’s the only way to truly affect real change and make a difference. It’s the DNC and RNC’s job to field a candidate who’s worth your vote. If they don’t do that, find someone who’s worth it.
I would honestly recommend moving somewhere that federates with both lib and tankie servers because the tone/level of debate otherwise is pretty grim imho
Youre not going to get a chance to vote third party again under donnie dump, tho.
Nah, they’ll still let parties that don’t have a chance run for election. Just look at Russia, they recently had an election…
Oh yes, fair point. Like the communist party of russia. There once was many, but they ensured only the one that they could best control remains
You will never get a chance to vote for what you want became America isn’t a democracy. It’s not a democracy if a club of rich people choose who you get to vote for. That’s literally how Chinese democracy works except it’s the party instead of the oligarchs.
Cant decide if this comment is more ignorant, or defeatist…
The bus is heading for a cliff. Someone stands up and says, “this is stupid! We should change the way we make decisions so this can’t happen!” You hold that person down so they can’t stop the driver because you want to tell the driver to get ice cream after the bus drives off the cliff.
Someone has not read the faq in the OP. And either theyve missed the million and one times i call for direct action, or theyre just another bad faith actor.
The US is not a democracy, it’s an oligarchy. This is a fact. We talk about it constantly. The fact that oligarchs basically choose who can and can’t run for the two major parties, and that the two major parties control the debates, mirrors the way the Chinese Communist Party controls who can run in elections. In both cases they let the people choose between the options that are acceptable to those who are actually in charge. This is just an observation of reality.
The US was built by slave owning oligarchs who didn’t want to pay taxes for the genocide they’d been doing. They built a system od government around controlling the population. Only landed white men could vote. The facade of the system has changed over time but the system itself remains largely the same: a small group of landed white men get to control basically everything. This is just an observation of history.
The idea that any colonizer state can possibly be democratic is just absurd. Any system bult on genocide and oppression won’t magically stop being built on genocide and oppression. The system must be completely replaced.
So the question to ask is if you advocate direct action to make sure this isn’t something that can ever happened again, or if you just advocate direct action so you can go back to brunch until next time?
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Have fun sailing off the cliff.
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The box is empty, isn’t it?
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Wouldn’t expect a Trumper to. Did I say Trumper? I wanted to say ‘fascist enabling fuckwit’.
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I’m doing the moral calculations. Fuck Biden, but fuck Trump more. If I vote for Biden, millions suffer. If I vote for Trump (or waste my vote so he wins), even more suffer. Doesn’t take too much evaluating to pick being slapped in the face vs bring punched in the face.
I absolutely support the undecided campaign in the primaries to put pressure on Biden, but putting pressure on him and the DNC by letting Trump be in charge for another 4 years is a terrible idea. Even without Trump in office the GOP is quickly eroding even the semblance of democracy we’ve had for a while, but with 4 years of Trump accelerating that I think this would be the last time my vote even slightly matters. Then I’d also need to evacuate from the country because I’m trans and don’t want them ruining my life. I’m voting for Biden in the general to avoid that, and then afterwards I guess I have to figure out what I can even do about the still-evolving bad situation that I helped successfully slow.
If reducing suffering and not letting an impossible perfect be the enemy of the better is amoral, I don’t understand your definition of moral. I’m a utilitarian if you couldn’t tell.
Says the person voting for Trump.
I understand your position and hate that we live in a shitty world where that choice is forced on people, but from what i see it from here, you guys have a choice between choosing the guy who’s not good but is at least doing some good, and the active fascist idolizing Hitler, with every neutral vote being effectively helping the fascist.
Not much of a choice, yes, but that’s where you are, and any vote not going to the not good guy will help the fascist. So that’s your choice, will you choose to fly over the cliff along with everybody else in the rest of the car or help avoiding that?
Biden isn’t doing any harm reduction for anyone right now. Maintaining the status quo will just put us right back here in 2-4 years time. Holding Biden’s feet ti the fire and making him implement actual harm reduction now in return for voting for him in November is what any sane voting block needs to do.
I’m German. I really hope you guys don’t vote for the fascist this time, but seeing comments like yours make me extremely happy that my partner emigrated from the US instead of still being there.
The Democrats have been less terrible than the GOP for decades now. They need to actually start offering solutions and helping people though. The Democrats need to actually earn votes, not just shame you for voting for Republicans
Though I agree that would be ideal, it also takes more work than just saying “see those guys want to make your life worse, we might not do that openly, vote for us because there’s no other choice”
Humans are lazy, and power hungry. Even Democrats.
The Democrats know who they need to vote for them, and those people have made it clear what they want. There are no “moderate” Republicans that are gonna vote Biden, so he needs to actually listen to the people who will vote for him and give them what they want. And they want it now because they aren’t gonna fall for the the Democrat bait and switch anymore.
People can get as mad as they want about people using their vote to get what they want, but that’s literally hiw the system is designed to work.
so he needs to actually listen to the people who will vote for him and give them what they want
Why? It’s more work. And who are you gonna vote for anyways? Someone else that will end up with Drumpf again?
Like I said, humans are lazy and power hungry.
I guarantee you that trump isn’t going to save the brown people in the middle east. We don’t have to compare it to ice cream then. How about voting between killing brown people vs killing brown people, subjugation women, and taking from the working class to give to our oligarchs. Does that help make it clearer?
The point is not voting helps the second result move along
pretty sure biden was president when roe v wade was overturned, so i don’t see how giving him power again would help the women you’re mentioning. also pretty sure biden has been helping oversee the oppression of the working class from dc for about 50 years, so i am not exactly convinced he’s going to do anything about it if he literally can’t lose any more elections.
You do realize that trump put 3 Supreme Court justices and flipped the court right?? Do trump supporters just not understand cause and effect?
The depressing thing is that not only Trump supporters but most people in my experience do not have a firm grasp on cause and effect, especially politically and historically
And who are the Democrats and who are the GOP in your analogy? Because both do a fine job of checking off all of those boxes.
My favorite morons ITT:
”Both options are cliffs!”
Yeah because the guy promising to end democracy and bring about Christian nationalism is exactly the same as the moderate we have now. I hope you’re getting paid to be that stupid.
”I won’t vote to support genocide!”
At the end of the day someone becomes president, and spoiler alert the other option is still worse. It’s cute you think your principles are more important than the safety and security of at-risk groups domestically (and frankly abroad as well). Short-sighted and idiotic.
”We might not even get ice cream!”
Okay well organize and protest that after we’ve avoided the cliff.
”Haha Americans are stupid for the entrenched political system that they find themselves in”
Hope you enjoy your five minutes of smugness, because a Christian nationalist USA doesn’t benefit anyone in the world in the long run.
a lot of the individuals ITT are here in good faith i believe. i’m more trying to get meaningful change to happen than sow discord by calling them morons.
I hear you and I appreciate what you’re trying to do here, though I am skeptical that these people actually are coming here in good faith.
You, i like you
c:
Ive gotten righty whities to agree with me on all sorts of wild leftist ideas, its about finding the angle and humanizing the problem.
A-fuckin-goddamn-men.
You need to communicate with people. Berating them is entirely self serving. No one ever said “you know what? I am a moron, thanks for pointing out my worldview is entirely wrong and I’m an asshole in those exact words.”
You can get people to realize they’re wrong, but calling them names is exactly the wrong way to do it.
I say “talk to a conservative in conservative language” and they’ll understand you. Avoid “trigger” words like redistribution, socialism, LGBT+, etc… use words like “Liberty, freedom of expression, government overreach (when discussing infringement of LGBT+ rights) etc…”
i feel like sometimes people forget the little username in their phone represents a living breathing life that may or may not have had breakfast this morning :(
Ha, I think at least 70% of Internet arguments are caused by hangryness!
yes and the other 30% are caused by people being bags of flesh with bones and sickness inside
Well… with the amount of bots confirmed to be out there… and some of those living breathing lives are out to convince Americans that what they actually want to do is hand Dr. Fascismo the presidency by not voting or protest voting third party.
The problem is that “moderates” are very conservative and fascist-leaning as well. The Biden administration is still funding genocide, still turning away asylum-seeking migrants, hell Biden hasn’t even followed through on releasing prisoners convicted of marijuana convictions.
And people ARE protesting now, but not as much as under Trump, and these things haven’t changed. Biden allows barely engaged liberals to think everything is okay, but Biden is still AWFUL he just has better optics to liberals.
That Christian Nationalist USA is already present. It’s emboldening is inevitable due to the inaction from Democrats and especially Biden: the alleged “moderate” president.
Biden is also actively arming a genocide in Gaza. A move I would say is extremely far from moderate in any position. Trump is a horrible choice for president. It was true in 2016 and it’s true now. But if Biden refuses to do even the barest of minimums to defeat him in an election what does that say about Biden?
So sure, call it smugness, call it idiotic or whatever bullshit; continue to vilify those tired of voting for bullshit candidates and inaction. I’m sure that will help prove your point; as Biden does literally nothing to combat any of increasingly tense situations rising in the US under his tenure.
Please don’t misunderstand me: I’m not thrilled about the situation either.
But I’m also not going to coddle anyone that thinks making things significantly worse for untold millions to maintain some kind of ideological purity makes them somehow superior or less culpable.
I wouldn’t water opposing genocide down to “ideological purity”. It’s opposing genocide, and that’s objectively right every time.
And that’s before getting into Joe’s inaction on pretty much any important issues during his term. If Trump wins the 2024 election then outside of the GOP that’s entirely on Joe Biden for failing to oppose genocide and run any sort of compelling administration.
The reality of the shitty political system of the US means that it comes down to two bad choices.
However one of the bad choices would see the genocide of the Palestinian people accelerated. Not only that, but Trump has tried to oppose aid to Ukraine, which would allow for genocide of the Ukrainian people to occur unabated.
So if your actions to oppose one genocide results in the continuation of that genocide plus one more, is what you did objectively right every time?
Yes, it is still objectively right. Anyone deciding not to vote for Biden isn’t automatically culpable for any Trump victory unless they voted for him personally.
Again, Biden has had plenty of time to prove that he’s against genocide. To take any sort of major action to try and stop this genocide from continuing the way that it has. Or at the very least taking away all US funding from Israel. He has done none of that while approving additional military funding for Israel.
This is of course before bringing up the electoral college and how the majority of states don’t even get a say in the presidential election outside of their states predetermined answer.
I will not vote for anyone funding genocide. Again, if Trump wins that’s entirely on Biden and the Democrats for failing to do anything. The signs have been here for months if not years in terms of voter disatisfaction: and they continue to do fuck all.
Yes, it is still objectively right. Anyone deciding not to vote for Biden isn’t automatically culpable for any Trump victory unless they voted for him personally.
This is an incredibly naïve and privileged perspective, clearly held by someone who has nothing to lose if Trump were to win.
All the anarkiddies that think the revolution is right around the bend forget that the reason vulnerable groups dont typically get any better treatment post revolution is bc they are the first to be destroyed when the revolution kicks up and the fascists double down.
These sorts of takes kill me. There is nothing stopping you from taking revolutionary courses of action right fucking now. The doors wide fucking open. Youll find that those doors will inch closed real fucking quick under trump.
The Spanish anarchists still have a political party active in Spain whose history runs right back to the civil war in which they fought. The very second of their posted tenets is (paraphrasing), making conditions under the current agenda more tolerable.
Meanwhile, russia has a single communist party formed in the 90s. Why? Bc all others were singularly crushed. They left the one that offers least opposition to the status quo.
That situation hasnt arrived yet. You are free to organize, you are free to aggregate in groups. You can spread your own propaganda, just as you can form or join labor unions, and you are free to try and create new communities of mutual aid. Those are all viable (read: necessary) steps to take.
Good luck taking them when the boot comes crashing down harder than this country has ever seen or was ever prepared for. Voting for Status Quo Joe isnt an endorsement of him, his policies, or the neoliberal status quo. Its just that, a vote. You can use it strategically to buy more time to make evasive maneuvers, or u can forfeit ur vote and lose it all. Then theres always throw it to the dogs via third party the way the american libertarians tried in 2012 when ron paul didnt get the repub nom the way they wanted. Guess what happened then… Johnson still get way under the 5% of the vote needed to give third parties greater tv time next time around. And this time, if dump wins, thats probably going to be the last ur able to vote for a third party president anyway.
We (the left) have been hit by foreign astroturfing the way the right was in 2016. The influx of youth that was supposed to save us by their leftward skew is running away from the political process bc they think theyre going to be revolutionaries. Sorry boys and girls, anarchy/communism wont be brought about by memes, sitting at home, or pretending that you can convince ppl to join ur cause after trumps elected when their lives are going to be all the more consumed and their free time dwindles away as we all work heavier and heavier hrs and the retirement age slips further and further away.
Really sick of hearing it all.
”Both options are cliffs!”
But they are though.
The cliff drivers aren’t getting off the bus, even if we vote them down this time, if we don’t change the system that allows them equal opportunity to drive us off a cliff they will eventually force it off the cliff.
Biden has long supported the system that allows it, prides himself on being able to find a middle ground with them, and though he talks about not going over the cliff has no long term plan for dealing with those that do, because again he believes in the system that allows them to want to drive off the cliff.
I believe I’ve stretched this metaphor about as far as it will go, but I’m going to try stretching it further.
There are actually two cliffs, fascism and climate change, even if we pull the bus away from one cliff we’ve still got the other in front of us and basically no one is even pretending to deal with that.
And to leave the broken bus scenario, I’m just going to say if you believe that a trump win will destroy American democracy, that we can’t defeat his corrupt, senile version of fascism then the next republican demagogue will have no problems.
you can do so much more to defeat the reactionaries by visiting:
- a gym
- a shooting range
- a library
- your local revolutionary organization’s meeting
than a polling station
It’s so weird to see it framed as an either/or. Voting is the absolute bare minimum you can do to participate. So yeah go vote, and also organize your friends and network with like minded people around you and work towards the change you want. I doubt any of the ideologically pure abstainers here have even ever turned out to vote much less actually worked on a campaign.
People frame it as an either/or because the reality is that voting doesn’t hold the personal power you think it does.
Due to how our elections work your vote just might be worthless. Add on all of the other issues at hand, and the prospective of voting is absolutely depressing for some of us.
This still doesn’t really make it an either/or situation, but one situation gives you the ability to potentially make a positive difference in the world, whereas the other, not so much.
Like I said, absolute minimum you can do.
Millions of people on the bus. Some vote to drive to place A. Some want to drive to place B. Neither is the cliff. But both A voters and B voters are using the bus-cliff false analogy to manipulate people to vote for their option.
In reality the chance that your vote would even affect the result is nearly zero.
Some vote to drive to place A. Some want to drive to place B. Neither is the cliff. But both A voters and B voters are using the bus-cliff false analogy to manipulate people to vote for their option.
Place A is “fuck everyone who isn’t the same as us, they should die!”
Place B is “people different from us shouldn’t die just for existing.”You: “both are the same.”
Yeah, misrepresentation of other group points of view is strongly represented in both groups
Which group was supporting the razor wire on the Texas border that was actively killing people?
A great example of misrepresentation.
It’s as actively killing anyone as ground actively kills people who jump out of airplane.
Should it be there? No. Is it safe? No.
But painting it as an “actively killing people” is misrepresentation of other group point of view. Thank you for a great example.
A great example of someone avoiding the topic.
On one side you have people saying “The existence of this is causing people to die, we should get rid of it.”
On the other side you have people responding “technically this thing isn’t killing anyone. It the blood loss and drowning that kills them.” and refusing to engage with the actual concern here. Also, they keep insisting “bOtH sIdEs ArE tHe SaMe!”Thank you for showing that you are completely disingenuous. Someone who actually wants to have a discussion and show a different point of view does not reply with “That is a misrepresentation and I will not elaborate any further.” A person interested in a good faith discussion would say it is a misrepresentation and then state what the alternative point of view actually is.
When people refuse to do so it’s usually because the actual point of view is indefensible, so the best they can do is refuse to define it and claim everything is a misrepresentation.
Hundreds of millions of people on the bus. The difference between violent christofascism and at least a bare minimum respect for human rights is only made by a few million votes per election cycle, while a majority of voters still don’t vote at all.
And then you come in spreading fear uncertainty and doubt, encouraging more people not to vote.
Self examine whatever the heck it is you think you are doing because your position is untenable.
Guy B said “I’m gonna drive off the cliff, just the once.” Out loud, in public, on television.
Fuck you.
Wait, is the ice cream at the bottom of the cliff?
It’s a false dilemma. --For the reasons people reduce it and argue that it is an exclusively binary decision would by the nature of those reasons implicitly argue against the concept of living under any form of a functional democracy itself.
This is written from an “I’m right, you’re wrong” perspective. In real life, no one is running a drive off a cliff campaign, and the guy promising ice cream may not be able to deliver.
Also, fundamentally both left and right can make the argument the other side wants to run off a cliff.
Also, fundamentally both left and right can make the argument the other side wants to run off a cliff.
Which is a great achievement by republicans. They’re excellent at controlling the narrative and making it seam like the Biden admin is actually equally bad.
Disclaimer, I’m Dutch, so my view is an outside view;
I don’t know if it’s their achievement. It seems to me that in the USA you can choose for the conservatives who want to keep everything as it always was, including Russia as the bad guys and Israel as the ever lasting allie. Or you can chose for the conservatives who want to install a state religion and re-install segregation. The first group wants to be a global power with reach all over the world, the last group doesn’t care for the rest of the world. With both groups the rich get richer.
In real life, no one is running a drive off a cliff campaign
I mean, one person is promising to end democracy in favor of chrisofacism. I feel like a “drive off the cliff” campaign is a pretty apt analogy.
It’s not. In a christofascism, not everybody suffers. People just assume they will be in the not suffering group. If a bus runs off a cliff, not so much.
Yeah, it’s a baby’s understanding of politics.
Like do these people actually think we get to vote on what the bus does? No, we’re voting on the bus driver. We’ve got a screaming maniac and a doddering fool who keeps letting the maniac yank the wheel anyway, and they’re both proven liars.
Pointing out that this situation is bad is not irresponsible. The irresponsible thing is to just vote and cheer on the fool because you’re so afraid of the maniac.
if this is happening there’s a moral imperative to hijack the bus yourself
Except they are on a train and the tracks only lead off the cliff
This is a good metaphor on voting. You are not the driver, you are a passenger. Your choices cannot change the route.
For all the fatalists I’ll bring beer so we can watch the world burn together after you’ve voted
Not voting is lazy in most circumstances for sure. What I hate is that people equate voting third party with not voting. I’m not voting blue. Y’all can’t guilt me into it. I’m voting for a third party socialist. 😏
i gently would encourage you to look into game theory and the far reaching implications of the spoiler effect under first past the post
i do applaud your commitment to morally tenable candidates, however many folks find there is a deeper opportunity for good in the voting process, at least in the current environment, and i generally concur
The threat of the spoiler effect could be used to move the Democratic Party’s policy left. You’re not thinking strategically.
feel free to elaborate im not seeing your vision right now
- leftists don’t vote for Biden. big coalition voting for a socialist third party candidate.
- Democrats lose or get scared and run someone more left next election. Democrats stop trying to appease centrists and start trying to appease leftists who will demonstrably withhold votes
pretty straightforward
kind of already happening, if on a smaller scale.
to do it full scale as you suggest you’d need a infeasibly huge chunk of capital to run against an incumbent.
Yes exactly this movement!
I am not really suggesting that a third party candidate could win during this election, I agree about the capital. But you can pressure the Democrats to take on leftist policies as much as possible by refusing to vote for Democrats, and voting for a third party alternative.
I honestly don’t see another way that Democrats would be prompted to change their policies, as it is they have remained moderate (aka conservative on a global political context). But if Democrats saw that 10% of the vote went to a Socialist, and they lost because of that?? They would change.
Right now the Democrats are catering towards conservative moderates who think that a white nationalist candidate a potentially viable option.
yeah i totally concur and have been consistently in favor of the uncommitted movement. i also think folks voting third party in deep blue states, where the risk of spoiling for a fascist win is low, aren’t incredibly off the mark. i’m not smart enough to understand polster analysis so i can’t pretend to know if these pressures are working, but i do support them.
so i don’t really get where your accusations of me not thinking strategically are coming from lol.
I appreciate you being nice. I understand the concern you have with the spoiler effect. But our country has been stuck in this lesser evil game for my whole life. That being said I also live in a very blue state. If my state were to go red it won’t be because of the few people like that vote third party.
You have to change the voting system if you want to change the game. I suggest volunteering with Election Science to switch your elections to Approval Voting, so you can vote for everyone you like, instead of just the person you hate least.
Yep I know. Sadly elected officials are needed to change the voting system so that’s largely unhelpful.
I’d love to have ranked choices voting. But like only the third party candidates would possibly do that. Candidates from team red or blue have nothing to gain by doing that and stand to lose everything by doing it.
They’re not needed in every jurisdiction. In some places you can change the voting method through referendum. It does suck when you can’t do that though. I still like approval voting over rcv, but anything is better than choose one.
And the difference between that and not-voting is what?
Not counting an air of smug superiority.
Abstaining does not mean “you are okay with either option” abstaining is a vote for people not having a choice.
Idk if it is same in us, but we have what is called blank voting, which is a vote that could be that. But not voting is a fascist statement.
Nah, it’s the difference between a grassy cliff, and a muddy one. Doesn’t matter, still a fucking cliff.
To extrapolate your metaphor, I will vote, but for a third option: a dirt road. Yea I’ll be in the minority, but we are all good as dead anyway since everyone else including my state reps believe one cliff or the other is the path to Valhalla.
I will vote, but for a third option
Ah, so you’re voting for trump I see!
/s, obviously that depends on where you are on top of other things
Haha! No trump is the muddy cliff. I don’t know what the third option is yet. To be clear, I have plenty of reason to vote. But I also have plenty of reasons to not choose either candidate. Also, I happen to be in a red state which gives all of its electoral votes to one candidate, I will vote for who I want, since the outcome has already been determined.
I mean, even in your example, yes it does matter. They’re both terrible choices, but the muddy cliff is likely to provide a softer, more survivable landing than the grassy one.
I was definitely not thinking about all the nuances beyond them both being cliffs. I think neither is good for America, and my gerrymandered state will go red regardless of votes.
But that’s kinda the idea with harm reduction. You acknowledge that neither choice is good, so you go with the least bad choice to buy some time to make some better choices later.
