“…because you don’t understand sourdough”

Made me spit up my coffee.

Likewise!

Ah gotcha; that’s helpful. That’s not been my understanding of this content, so I’ll have to look into that, thanks.

You say it’s a copyright license, and I think that’s exactly where I’m struggling with this. My understanding is that this is a license for something copyrighted or otherwise protected. Copyright protects things from their creation. A copyright license provides certain people action that would otherwise be denied by copyright. So are you saying that your understanding is that what we write here on Lemmy is copyrighted, with authors holding the rights? That would be helpful to know because that has not been my understanding of copyright (and I know country plays an important role here), so that would be interesting to look into.

Oh I clicked the link, mate, and read through a couple links deep. What I’m saying is that my understanding of the license is that it allows permissions for a restricted item, but it does not restrict an item with open permissions. You know what I mean? You need to be a rights holder of something that is protected by copyright or the like, and then you can use this license to open permissions in certain ways, in this case that the item can be used for non-commercial means. So this wouldn’t work with stuff on Lemmy, right?

My understanding of the Creative Commons licenses is that they are for providing permission to people to use something that they wouldn’t be able to otherwise, due to copyright or other issues. I don’t think the licenses are capable of limiting what people can do with something if it’s already the wild west, or do I have that wrong?

It’s a show about a retired Sam Spade, the detective from the Maltese Falcon.

…they’re talking about that ToxicAvenger person in this thread that you’re replying to.

Took a quick look at the first few messages and the links: seems like BiglyBT is banned by a lot of private trackers because it’s possible to mod it to spoof the numbers required to stay a member in the private tracker, while also being able to create a torrent file that allows others using the mod to utilize the private tracker without permission. Not sure if any of that functionality has to do with I2P.

For some reason, the mobile app I primarily use doesn’t allow me to see this comment or our entire thread, so I had figured it was deleted or something. But I happen to be on desktop atm and here it is! Must’ve just been something with the app. I’ll reply, but based on the vitriol in your comment, I think it makes sense that this be the end of our conversation anyway though.

In regards to your claim that I have said racism doesn’t happen on an individual level, that is simply not true. It’s possible I have not been explained my position clearly enough, but I am also running out of ways to explain it. Since our conversation is coming to a close, I think the best way to explain is for me to try and explain both our positions at once. Do let me know if I have misunderstood your position!

My position is that racism is the combination of prejudice, systemic oppression, and other social tools of oppression that work in tandem, which limits racism to being used as an in-group against and out-group and not the other way around. An in-group individual can be prejudiced against an out-group individual, and it is racist because of the social/systemic dynamics in play. An out-group individual can be prejudiced against an in-group individual, but it is not racist because it does not include social and systemic oppression. It’s my example of “an insult is not just an insult when that person is holding a gun.” My understanding is that you believe this erases the in-group people’s experience of prejudice, and that that is racist, in and of itself. My position is that your definition equates the two experiences when they are actually very, very different and is deeply invalidating of the experience of an out-group person for you to equate them.

Hopefully at the very least in this conversation, we have reached some understanding of our two positions! We don’t have to agree, of course, but I believe it’s important that we have these conversations and seek understanding above all. That’s why I was disappointed to see your comment that felt like you actually were not engaging with me with the goal of mutual understanding. If we all stand too firmly in our perspectives, we will never see others’ and can’t ever learn.

That gets to my last point actually. I don’t consider myself lucky that you have been polite up until this point; I consider respect the expectation. That’s why I think our discussion should end at this point. When conflict turns to insults and hateful speech, we are no longer in healthy conflict; we are now just in a fight and not working towards understanding or resolution. It’s funny because we both basically have the same position, if my summary of our positions above is correct; we’re just on opposite sides. You think I’m invalidating certain experiences by excluding them; I think you’re invalidating certain experiences by including them. So since you think that I am scum, a cockroach, etc., I expect that you believe I should think the same of you. But I don’t. It’s clear that care a lot about this issue, enough to spend time with a stranger discussing it to share your perspective. I appreciate you sharing your perspective on this, and I don’t think you should sell yourself short on your intelligence, mate.

Thanks again for the conversation up until the insults, and take care of you!

You’re mixing the metaphor, mate. Gravity certainly behaves like a force in some ways and looks like a force in some ways, but also does not look or behave like a force. You have to peel away the surface level. Prejudice may look like prejudice going both between the in-group and the out-group. But an insult from one person to another is a very different thing when the person doing the insulting is armed with a gun. Now it’s not just an insult, is it? Saying “that’s an insult either way” doesn’t really summarize the experience, does it? The person being insulted at the end of a gun is having a very different experience. It’s not an insult anymore; it’s a threat of violence, it’s a threat of death, it’s a threat of “I can and will take everything from you” with centuries of violence and systemic oppression to back it.

You’re right that gravity is kind of a force. But it’s also not, and that’s very important to understand. Ya feel me? I’m not saying racism doesn’t happen on an individual level; quite the opposite. I’m saying the systemic and social oppression cannot be extricated from the individual level. And that’s why it’s not the same thing for a white person as it is for a black or brown person, when those are the in-group vs out-group respectively.

I gotta say, mate, I happened to scroll up and see another comment you made, stating that “they need to prove it” but won’t be able to “because they’re wrong.” I assume that’s in reference to me. I engage in conversations like these with the intent of just that, having conversation, seeing if we can find some understanding, and being willing to be wrong about things. That comment makes me feel like I was the only one bringing that to this conversation, and you are simply engaging with it from a “I’m right” perspective without even a consideration that your perspective may not be entirely right. Am I reading that right?

Yeah, this thread has been fascinating. It’s the most basic concept and people are wild’n out. My last comment at the bottom of this thing I think will summarize it well for anyone who reads through it all. I think the biggest concern is why people are so resistant to understanding the additional power/control and systemic shit within racism. I use “gravity” as an example, but when it comes to racism, these are people’s lives. And I’d hate to think how invalidating it would make someone feel to hear this “no” and “check the dictionary” shit in a conversation outside of the Internet.

If you’ll afford me a long comment, I have an example that I think will explain my confusion. If you check the Oxford dictionary, you’ll see it define “gravity” as a force. Let’s say someone says “gravity is a force” in a thread much like this. I and others clarify “well, it presents as a force in some respects, but very much not like one in others.” People respond “No, it’s a force.” I clarify further how that’s not entirely the case. “Check the dictionary.” Yes, but the dictionary is just trying to summarize a very complex subject in physics and is not a replacement for the sciences. “No one is equating the dictionary and the sciences, but people still use the dictionary definition.”

I understand that; indeed that’s how this thread formed. What I don’t understand is why, when I say that gravity is not entirely a force, it is met with a rejection of that clarification and nuance. Gravity is not entirely a force; it’s way more complicated than that. Racism is not just prejudice; it’s way more complicated than that. I’m confused why this is such an issue.

The dictionary is not a replacement for the social sciences, friend. It seems like you have a narrative in your head about why I am arguing this point, but I’d like to point out that your argument is currently standing on “but the dictionary though” in the face of decades of research.

I don’t know who that is; first time talking with them as far as I know. I don’t mind engaging with someone until they seem disingenuous; but yeah, that’s where I’ve reached with that person. A short reply of “check the dictionary” is not the sign of someone wanting actual conversation. Guessing you’ve had a similar run-in with them.

Lol mate, you’re being willfully obtuse. As you already know, there is knowledge beyond the confines of the dictionary, and the dictionary is merely attempting to summarize a very complex subject. If you’d like to broaden your perspective, you can turn to the research which is where I’m pulling my definition. If you’d like to understand why it’s so important to include those other things I mentioned in the definition, there’s plenty of reading opportunities to explain that.

Yes, and racism is also a social hierarchy and systemic structure that utilizes tools of oppression to allow the in-group to have power and control over the out-group. Calling it prejudice alone is not acknowledging the full picture.

Sure is. But “White” is prejudice at worst, not racism. Racism includes the inherent power dynamics and systemic racism against minorities.

I’d love one, thanks for raffling them off!

Maybe. “Edgy” to me implies people trying to emotionally manipulate others into reactions by lambasting or supporting certain viewpoints. But, and this may just be a definitions thing, I don’t think that implies that people who are being edgy don’t believe what they are purporting. Trolls I think though are manipulating completely regardless of their actual views. So maybe trolls are a subset of people who are being edgy.