Huge drama surrounding instances that have a major far-right presence and certain instances cutting connections (defederating), while others aren’t (staying federated).
I like how someone put it in another thread. From the “defederaters,” The argument most seen is: “if there’s a nazi at the table and you say nothing, it’s a table full of nazis.” The most common counter-argument is “it’s actually like a stadium full of people with some nazi’s in the corner jerking themselves off.” From the “federators,” the most common argument is “defederation defeats decentralization,” and the most common counter to this is simply: “fuck off nazi!”
I find the whole situation quite extraordinary to see unfold and be a part of.
What stadiums have these people been to where being a Nazi is okay? Stadium staff curate very specific atmospheres, and being a Nazi is an automatic disqualifier
Excellent example of why giant instances are bad ideas. Nazis love forcing you into a “throw the baby out with the bathwater” type choice because it means they can continue their hateful, destructive, genocidal behaviors without consequences. They’re usually not stupid, they know what they’re doing is wrong, they just want to keep getting away with it. So they’ll go nuclear on anyone and everyone in order to maintain their comfy corner of hate.
Any moderator (or stadium owner) who doesn’t give Nazis jerking off in a corner a lifetime ban is negligent, as you said.
Stop running away from Nazi. Most of them are just trolls with a Nazi facemask to scare a reaction out of you. Don’t cede power to them by acting as if their are dangerous. They are clowns, clown them.
They tried to overthrow the federal government last election and are responsible for countless hate crimes and fomenting prejudice and violence against marginalized people, including supporting new fascist laws in the past few years. They are dangerous, their ideology is dangerous, and their speech is used as a weapon to harm people. I’m not running away, I’m saying any “stadium” owner can and should be expected to ban such assholes from the premises. As the saying goes, if a bar owner lets Nazis congregate in the corner of their bar, it’s a Nazi bar. “Not all Germans” physically committed a genocide, but all of them tolerated or endorsed Nazism to the point of allowing it to happen. When good people see evil rising, they get involved and disrupt it, they don’t stay quiet and let it grow.
Nah this is not how moderation works on the fediverse. If you defederate from Nazi instances, Nazis have an incentive to go to those instances instead of yours - namely because they can’t interact with Nazi content. They can still harass your users of course, but they can’t build a platform and get banned quickly. So on the Fediverse you end up with a lot of Nazis on only a few servers, and everyone just bans those servers. Same goes for pedos, TERFs, etc.
This makes it a LOT easier as an instance admin to moderate content and keep users safe. As a Masto admin, I only get about 10 reports a week because I block about 200-300 servers. It also incentivizes me and my other fellow admins to block that kind of content, because if we don’t, Nazis will come to our servers and we risk being defederated from.
The system is broken then, if it depends on a tiny amount of super powerful users who can and do block entire servers for one comment. Then this system is already broken, unsustainable and a waste of my time.
This is obvious to me, this system is missing a functioning moderation system.
Relying on individual human thought janitors to try and hand-pick back content, because of how human nature is, is vowed to failure from the start.
First the kind of people who are going to be attracted by this kind of power, are never people I would like to allow manipulating what sort of things I see. And second, human lazyness will lead to harsh and excessive decision from those moderators
In fact, a system designed like this, will have to always comprise with making the moderator’s impossible task as easy and as convenient as possible. This will always make the user’s voice into a worthless shitstain in their curated garden.
And I say that as someone who has been victim of such as stupid and broken system.
I was a user of reddit’s /r/quebec, the biggest Quebec discussion forum. The one online place where Quebec society comes to talk to itself.
And to illustrate my point, there was one of those extremely annoying amber alert and the name of the kid was really funny. And the text of the amber alert made it clear it was one of those child custody dispute, not a kidnapping.
So I just made a joke that naming their kid whatever-it-was itself constituted child abuse.
Ah, ah real funny.
And you know what happenned. I have been been permanently banned for life from ever interacting with the biggest online community of where I live.
I find that extremely unfair and it’s obvious why it happened. Those people who delete people, they will never ever be able to handle the scale of sorting that enormous mass of content. So they just delete on sight anything they don’t like, not just the comment but the people themselves.
Any oppressive system like that, which monopolize the center of discourse is a dictatorship.
I don’t care about nazi, the real nazi are the mods. All forums systems so far have been like this. Compromised by their weak, useless moderation systems.
It’s unfortunate but there are a ton of shitbag people out there whose method of using the Internet is to be as shitty as they can be. Whether it’s fascism, abuse, sexism, racism, harassment, or just being the kind of person nobody wants to be around, these are real-life humans who’ve always been around and volunteer moderators/admins have always had to deal with. It’s as old as Usenet and if you’ve ever done in-person community management you know that it’s just a feature of our society in general. (People are just a little more wary of being yelled at and punched in person though.)
Downvotes and user moderation is more than enough. Giving unlimited power of content manipulation to a secret cabal of powerusers is not a solution, it’s a dictatorship worse than whatever the bad users could muster.
Any such system, can burn for all I care. I am so, so fed up with the control freaks. who think they’re better than everyone.
Make every user a moderator, and make their moderation public and proportionnate with their status as one of the users.
Then other user content discovery algorithm will just not pick the comment with 30 downvotes and 10 user blocks. Moderators are completely superfluous and in fact destroy the system as they plainly are doing to lemmy right now.
I don’t care to have do my part downvoting a nazi once in a while. Much better that than to be the powerless victim of power tripping moderators.
Huge drama surrounding instances that have a major far-right presence and certain instances cutting connections (defederating), while others aren’t (staying federated).
I like how someone put it in another thread. From the “defederaters,” The argument most seen is: “if there’s a nazi at the table and you say nothing, it’s a table full of nazis.” The most common counter-argument is “it’s actually like a stadium full of people with some nazi’s in the corner jerking themselves off.” From the “federators,” the most common argument is “defederation defeats decentralization,” and the most common counter to this is simply: “fuck off nazi!”
I find the whole situation quite extraordinary to see unfold and be a part of.
What stadiums have these people been to where being a Nazi is okay? Stadium staff curate very specific atmospheres, and being a Nazi is an automatic disqualifier
Excellent example of why giant instances are bad ideas. Nazis love forcing you into a “throw the baby out with the bathwater” type choice because it means they can continue their hateful, destructive, genocidal behaviors without consequences. They’re usually not stupid, they know what they’re doing is wrong, they just want to keep getting away with it. So they’ll go nuclear on anyone and everyone in order to maintain their comfy corner of hate.
Any moderator (or stadium owner) who doesn’t give Nazis jerking off in a corner a lifetime ban is negligent, as you said.
Aren’t the instances defederating from exploding heads actually the ones maintaining their comfy corners though
Yes but instead of a comfy corner of hate, it’s a comfy corner without nazis
Do you actually have solid grounds to call all the users of an instance nazis? That’s not something to throw around lightly
Stop running away from Nazi. Most of them are just trolls with a Nazi facemask to scare a reaction out of you. Don’t cede power to them by acting as if their are dangerous. They are clowns, clown them.
They tried to overthrow the federal government last election and are responsible for countless hate crimes and fomenting prejudice and violence against marginalized people, including supporting new fascist laws in the past few years. They are dangerous, their ideology is dangerous, and their speech is used as a weapon to harm people. I’m not running away, I’m saying any “stadium” owner can and should be expected to ban such assholes from the premises. As the saying goes, if a bar owner lets Nazis congregate in the corner of their bar, it’s a Nazi bar. “Not all Germans” physically committed a genocide, but all of them tolerated or endorsed Nazism to the point of allowing it to happen. When good people see evil rising, they get involved and disrupt it, they don’t stay quiet and let it grow.
I don’t think they’re real. Pet theory, they’re actually bigtech henchmen here to fuck shit up so competitors get poisoned and die.
The answer is a more sophisticated user led moderation system that can wipe them off Lemmy like bugs on the windshield. Use wipers, not nuclear bombs.
Nah this is not how moderation works on the fediverse. If you defederate from Nazi instances, Nazis have an incentive to go to those instances instead of yours - namely because they can’t interact with Nazi content. They can still harass your users of course, but they can’t build a platform and get banned quickly. So on the Fediverse you end up with a lot of Nazis on only a few servers, and everyone just bans those servers. Same goes for pedos, TERFs, etc.
This makes it a LOT easier as an instance admin to moderate content and keep users safe. As a Masto admin, I only get about 10 reports a week because I block about 200-300 servers. It also incentivizes me and my other fellow admins to block that kind of content, because if we don’t, Nazis will come to our servers and we risk being defederated from.
The system is broken then, if it depends on a tiny amount of super powerful users who can and do block entire servers for one comment. Then this system is already broken, unsustainable and a waste of my time. This is obvious to me, this system is missing a functioning moderation system.
Relying on individual human thought janitors to try and hand-pick back content, because of how human nature is, is vowed to failure from the start.
First the kind of people who are going to be attracted by this kind of power, are never people I would like to allow manipulating what sort of things I see. And second, human lazyness will lead to harsh and excessive decision from those moderators
In fact, a system designed like this, will have to always comprise with making the moderator’s impossible task as easy and as convenient as possible. This will always make the user’s voice into a worthless shitstain in their curated garden.
And I say that as someone who has been victim of such as stupid and broken system.
I was a user of reddit’s /r/quebec, the biggest Quebec discussion forum. The one online place where Quebec society comes to talk to itself.
And to illustrate my point, there was one of those extremely annoying amber alert and the name of the kid was really funny. And the text of the amber alert made it clear it was one of those child custody dispute, not a kidnapping.
So I just made a joke that naming their kid whatever-it-was itself constituted child abuse.
Ah, ah real funny.
And you know what happenned. I have been been permanently banned for life from ever interacting with the biggest online community of where I live.
I find that extremely unfair and it’s obvious why it happened. Those people who delete people, they will never ever be able to handle the scale of sorting that enormous mass of content. So they just delete on sight anything they don’t like, not just the comment but the people themselves.
Any oppressive system like that, which monopolize the center of discourse is a dictatorship. I don’t care about nazi, the real nazi are the mods. All forums systems so far have been like this. Compromised by their weak, useless moderation systems.
I will take 100 nazi before I take one moderator.
It’s unfortunate but there are a ton of shitbag people out there whose method of using the Internet is to be as shitty as they can be. Whether it’s fascism, abuse, sexism, racism, harassment, or just being the kind of person nobody wants to be around, these are real-life humans who’ve always been around and volunteer moderators/admins have always had to deal with. It’s as old as Usenet and if you’ve ever done in-person community management you know that it’s just a feature of our society in general. (People are just a little more wary of being yelled at and punched in person though.)
Downvotes and user moderation is more than enough. Giving unlimited power of content manipulation to a secret cabal of powerusers is not a solution, it’s a dictatorship worse than whatever the bad users could muster.
Any such system, can burn for all I care. I am so, so fed up with the control freaks. who think they’re better than everyone.
Make every user a moderator, and make their moderation public and proportionnate with their status as one of the users.
Then other user content discovery algorithm will just not pick the comment with 30 downvotes and 10 user blocks. Moderators are completely superfluous and in fact destroy the system as they plainly are doing to lemmy right now.
I don’t care to have do my part downvoting a nazi once in a while. Much better that than to be the powerless victim of power tripping moderators.