I fucking love freedom and the free market 🦅🥲
To be fair, this is denying government subsidies, which is more of a free market than giving subsidies. This is especially true for Chinese companies, since they are by definition state-owned.
This is US car companies using their paid off politicians to make the US pressure another country into not making a deal that would increase competition in that market to their detriment .That’s many layers of fuckery deeper.
Is it that if they’re just blocking the vehicles that are subsidized? Let’s see what these EVs sell for without the Chinese government paying half the production costs.
If they’re blocking subsidized vehicles they’d have to block US companies
The subsidies in the US apply to companies of any nationality. The subsidies from China only cover companies controlled by the Chinese government.
Everything you said is true, except you are missing the context that this is for-profit US car companies not wanting to compete against state-owned car manufacturers who get all of their money from China and can take huge losses in order to outsell for-profit, private entities.
Removed by mod
Except every other company gets subsidies, so this is specific and not “fait market”.
The current fair market for EV manufacturers includes getting a buttload of incentives from governments.
There can be no market that is both “free” and “fair”
For a market to be fair there needs to be constraints in the right places
In this case the lack of constraints sufficiently restricting the ability for companies to pressure (read as bribe) politicians to push for a lack of subsides for specific sectors of an industry
These vehicles would also be eligible for those subsidies if they meet the criteria of being assembled from mostly North American parts. You’re comparing subsidies available for every company meeting certain criteria (even these Chinese companies) versus subsidies available only to those companies owned by the Chinese government.
The key word there is “company.” Chinese car manufacturers are not companies, they are the state-owned entities.
At this point, with such low price points producing comparable quality, Chinese EVs don’t need international subsidies to be able to expand their manufacturing.
It’s still cheaper to buy imported Chinese EVs even with tariffs than to buy domestic EVs in most, if not all, countries.
Why don’t other countries just lower their prices if they want to compete?
The Chinese government subsidizes their domestic car manufacturing industry to an insane degree. Regular capitalism can’t compete.
What are you talking about?
Capitalists love their subsidies. Just look at the semiconductor industry.
Fuck the united states.
and the subsidies.
Chinese EV makers, or Chinese-made EVs?
One is perfectly fine, reasonable, and logical, while the other is stabbing yourself in the foot because your friend asked you to.
China does not do altruism. Their car manufacturers are owned and subsidized by the government. They’re made to saturate and destroy markets with cheap goods, driving out the competition. Once there is no competition, they have the market to themselves and can manipulate as they see fit.
Subsidized by the government like…
Tesla?
https://newrepublic.com/article/175397/teslas-cheaper-now-thanks-subsidies-musk-hated
https://qz.com/elon-musks-spacex-and-tesla-get-far-more-government-mon-1850332884
https://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-hy-musk-subsidies-20150531-story.html
https://www.govtech.com/policy/gov-newsom-says-california-subsidies-powered-teslas-success
Oh, sorry, you must have meant a traditional car manufacturer like Ford.
https://www.cbtnews.com/ford-scores-massive-9-2-billion-loan-for-electric-vehicle-batteries/
https://www.autonews.com/manufacturing/ford-factory-subsidies-are-much-higher-other-deals
Oh, you meant other traditional car manufacturers like GM who took government loans to bail them out from bankruptcy.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/subsidies-supercharge-gms-ev-strategy-11668776501
https://www.mackinac.org/blog/2022/general-motors-should-not-get-soar-subsidies
https://www.politico.com/story/2018/12/19/bush-bails-out-us-automakers-dec-19-2008-1066932
https://www.marketplace.org/2018/11/13/what-did-america-buy-auto-bailout-and-was-it-worth-it/
Or maybe you meant non-American car manufacturers like Volkswagen?
https://www.cleanenergywire.org/news/germany-has-subsidised-total-two-million-electric-cars
https://industryeurope.com/sectors/transportation/germany-to-double-ev-subsidies-as-vw-launches-car/
They’re made to saturate and destroy markets with cheap goods, driving out the competition. Once there is no competition, they have the market to themselves and can manipulate as they see fit.
We shouldn’t allow the Chinese cars in. No way
Why not?
China does have a habit of market dumplings. It doesn’t play nice with trade. But no where does. China is just very good at flooding market with stuff that is artificially cheap. By say, not bothering to test it meets the regulations of the market. Or using slave trade. Or just straight subsidiaries.
Also all modern cars, EV or otherwise, and straight spy machines.
China is a problem, but cars isn’t where I’d start. (As long as they have been proved safe). I’d start with cheap electronics that don’t meet regulations all over Amazon and EBay. A lot is just environmentally bad as it’s just throwaway. Some is a fire risk.
China is just very good at dystopian capitalism.
I think that’s regular capitalism. At least at far as everyone plays it.
The most popular Chinese EVs, the ones shipped internationally, are treated as rigorously as those if any other country and recently BYD specifically have begun receiving safety scores higher than cars from other countries.
Market dumplings? Haven’t heard that one before, what’s that?
Yes, but democracy keeps capitalism in check normally, but not in China.
I’ve heard nothing but good things about modern Chinese EVs. But they still need to be checked, and keep being checked, as the China has a terrible history with regs. Also, if they are market dumping again, there needs to be tariffs to counter it.
Raw free trade is a tragedy of the commons nonsense. Protectionism is self defeating. In the real world, most places are between those two rails.
Market dumping is flooding a market.with your goods at a loss. It can because you have excess you want to recoop what you can from. It can also be a weapon to take over a market and destory competition.
Democracy keep capitalism in check? Woo, citation needed, I disagree.
Unions keep capitalism in check.
The safety standards I’m talking about are international safety standards tested internationally, not domestic Chinese safety standards.
https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/latest-byd-models-score-top-marks-in-euro-ncap-safety-test
Oh, dumping*.
It says market “dumplings” in your original comment, I thought that there was some kind of cool new economic term I didn’t know about.
Unions, regulations, etc. But none of that works without functioning democracy. That we barely have, but it’s better than none.
Due to experience, I don’t trust Chinese goods comply unless they are independently checked. That is reputation they have earned and now need to unearn. I don’t just blame Chinese manufacturers but also Amazon, Ebay, etc for enabling the sale of goods claiming they comply to standards they don’t.
Yes, dumping not dumplings, but yum. 😃
I doubt a democracy can function without unions any better than a union could function without a democracy.
It’s fine to be wary, but now that you’ve been made aware of the independent safety testing done in Europe by independent safety commissions of Chinese EVs, why are you still implying you need different independent safety testing?
China does not do altruism. Their car manufacturers are owned and subsidized by the government. They’re made to saturate and destroy markets with cheap goods, driving out the competition. Once there is no competition, they have the market to themselves and can manipulate as they see fit.
Weird that you are confusing such discrete, almost antithetical concepts as altruism and capitalism.
Yes, Chinese auto companies are trying to corner part of the auto market like every other car company in every country does.
And now they’re doing it with inexpensive EVs receiving top marks in safety and manufacture, according to the top global standards.
So you can whine about all car companies trying to sell a product(seems like a waste of time) or provide actual evidence that the safety ratings for Chinese EVs are false in some way.
Right now you’re spewing irrelevant tangents that have nothing to do with the EV industry.
He doesn’t want them to compete with Americans.
A totalitarian government that allows slave labor, genocide and wants to invade Taiwan. Really?
I think so. What are you asking, exactly?
You don’t get why we shouldn’t be trading with China And instead should ge enabling our own EV manufactures ?
So you’re pretending I’m making arguments I’m not because my comment makes you uncomfortable?
Have at it, I’m sure you’ll come out on top by arguing with yourself.
Your comments don’t make me uncomfortable. You just don’t seem to grasp why trading with China is bad.
You have no basis for that accusation, you’re playing make-believe.
It’s obviously difficult for you to engage in an honest discussion, though, so I can see why you make things up.
