This is an actual conversation I had with my oldest nephew when we went to the Boston Tea Party Museum last week.
“If you ever hear people complaining that damaging commercial property during a protest is unacceptable, remember what you learn about the Tea Party today. Our country was literally founded on protests trashing commercial property. And remember that some people complained to them that it was unacceptable too.”
What a fucking asshole. Maybe your position will change when it’s your property that’s being destroyed.
Destroying private property does not make politicians or police question their choices. It barely hurts them in any way. You know who it hurts? Your friends and neighbors who had abso-fucking-lutely nothing to do with whatever it is you’re upset about.
The Sons of Liberty only destroyed property that was directly responsible for their oppression.
You wanna go burn down the mayor’s house? The police commissioner’s house? The police union HQ? Have the fuck at it, you have my full support.
You wanna burn down the local convenience store or meat market? You wanna destroy vehicles and businesses that belong to your neighbors who are suffering alongside you? You’re human garbage.
Second verse, same as the first:
"IIt was the Sons of Liberty who ransacked houses of British officials. Threats and intimidation were their weapons against tax collectors, causing many to flee town. Images of unpopular figures might be hanged and burned in effigy on the town’s liberty tree.
Of course, the winners write the history books. Had the American Revolution failed, the Sons and Daughters of Liberty would no doubt be regarded as a band of thugs, or at the very least, outspoken troublemakers."
I’ll let Dr. King do the talking:
“A riot is the language of the unheard. And as long as America postpones justice, we stand in the position of having these recurrences of violence and riots over and over again. Social justice and progress are the absolute guarantors of riot prevention”
“I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro’s great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White citizens’ “Councilor” or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to “order” than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says “I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can’t agree with your methods of direst action” who paternistically feels that he can set the timetable for another man’s freedom; who lives by the myth of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait until a “more convenient season.” Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.”
https://billofrightsinstitute.org/primary-sources/letter-from-birmingham-jail
Of course, the winners write the history books. Had the American Revolution failed, the Sons and Daughters of Liberty would no doubt be regarded as a band of thugs, or at the very least, outspoken troublemakers."
So then you agree?
“A riot is the language of the unheard. And as long as America postpones justice, we stand in the position of having these recurrences of violence and riots over and over again.”
Your mistake is conflating an explanation with a justification.
the white moderate who is more devoted to “order” than to justice
Maybe you glossed over the part where I supported disorder. The problem is with how and where (and not when, as you suggested) that disorder takes place.
Remind me: did they burn down or steal from MLK’s church?
Third verse, same as the first:
This is an actual conversation I had with my oldest nephew when we went to the Boston Tea Party Museum last week.
“If you ever hear people complaining that damaging commercial property during a protest is unacceptable, remember what you learn about the Tea Party today. Our country was literally founded on protests trashing commercial property. And remember that some people complained to them that it was unacceptable too.”
See also Dr. King:
“who constantly says “I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can’t agree with your methods of direct action” who paternalistically feels that he can set the timetable for another man’s freedom”
Dude I think your record is broken. If you’re just going to repeat the same nonsense over and over without acknowledging my responses I can safely block you and move on with my day.
Historically inaccurate concern trolling. Nice.
Are you going to actually construct an argument against me or just throw up some fancy words you learned on the internet and bail?
Nah I don’t owe ya that lol. Next.
You don’t owe me your trolling either but you saw fit to put that on me regardless.
The tea wasn’t owned by the mom and pop shop neighbors who were also fighting for the same cause. There is a difference to me in a large corporation sustaining damage it will recoupe from insurance and people trying to scrape by and now can’t afford rent until the hopefully if they had insurance, then maybe a check comes in a few months.
Those places if a protestor breaks in during a riot I am fine with being shot at and even killed if need be. Your cause doesn’t give you the right to starve or put in jeopardy other people’s lives who did not choose to riot.
Owners are owners. I can’t have too much sympathy if a group of disenfranchised people, who have never had the opportunity to own anything, don’t distinguish between hyper capitalists and regular vanilla capitalists. Both are pieces of the system that denies people the value of their labor.
Case in point
Would be nice if we could start at not demonizing peaceful protests. Nowadays any protest is seen as a massive misguided problem of you so much as block a street.
But then muh car can’t move! Go defend your human rights somewhere where it doesn’t inconvenience me!
spoiler
/s
In fairness, I’ve got too many emergency workers in my family not to draw the line at fully blocking thoroughfares. Can you look an EMT in the eye who has had a patient die while their ambulence couldn’t get through protestors to the hospital and insist you’re in the right? Happens more than you’d want to know. Can’t find statistics, but googling it shows just page upon page of different incidents, and unfortunately most of the time shit like that happens it isn’t published since it’s all HIPAA-complicated to discuss that stuff.
You want to inconvenience someone walking into a Macdonalds? Go ahead. But keep the artery roads clear. It’s not about convenience, it’s about shutting down life-saving infrastructure. Those assholes that cemented themselves to 93N in Boston 5 years back didn’t earn any sympathy from anyone, even their own cause.
To simplify, the only way to get me not to stand beside you in defending your human rights is if you’re recklessly taking away someone else’s.
Riots are generally an escalation of peaceful protests, sure there are exceptions.
Usually, riots break out when people get so frustrated at the fact that no progress gets made during protests that they start to lash out.
Based take.
I swear, if you could teleport some people back to the French revolution, they’d be like “No need to protest, the king will give up absolute power on his own if we keep asking nicely” 🙄
The idea of a Right Wing literally exists because the deputies who thought that way in France back then took the right side of the chamber.
The French Revolution is way more complex and nuanced than that, and saying the people protested against the power of the king per se is really missing the point.
A better example would have been King Charles I and the English civil war.
Jesse’s absolutely right. The only reason our politicians are governing us is because we let them. Occasionally they need to be reminded of that fact.
The reason our government governs us today is because they have an overwhelming ability to do violence on us, and the majority of us fear it, even if only subconsciously. If you think it’s by our choice, you’re utterly delusional.
You’re right. I never signed a contract with the USA agreeing the current system is the best. We have our ancestors to thank for that, and even then, most of them had no control over the situation.
What’s the best way forward here? Constitutional renewal every generation?
Constitutional renewal every generation?
As a non-USA-Citizen, this is what always gets me about the originalists at SCOTUS: the idea of changing the constitution to reflect what the majority of US citizen believes is simply not possible anymore, because of outrageous distortions of the process. Given how unequal voters are distributed across states and the effective veto power of very small states, there is no way for the majority of people to do what the originalists demand: adapting the law so that no interpretation is necessary.
What makes originalism and those that represent it so incredible stupid is THAT THEY ADMIT THIS. Scalia used to chuckle in interviews when this was pointed out to him.
We should just start calling riots championship football celebrations. Then the media and the pols would love them.
my favorite is whenever i encounter the phrase “non-permitted protest”. like, the idea that you should ask permission from the authority you’re protesting before doing so: it’s just so laughably missing the point
Yep… People hate protests because they don’t understand that’s how it has always worked.
As long as no one is damaging private property of people who have nothing to do with what is being rioted over.
oh no! what ever will walmart do now that some windows are smashed?!
For a protest/riot over something that has nothing to do with walmart, what good does that do?
Riots are a last resort because people end up dead or in jail if they fail. You want to keep people who are on your side free and alive while achieving your goals.
But it is not enough for me to stand before you tonight and condemn riots. It would be morally irresponsible for me to do that without, at the same time, condemning the contingent, intolerable conditions that exist in our society. These conditions are the things that cause individuals to feel that they have no other alternative than to engage in violent rebellions to get attention. And I must say tonight that a riot is the language of the unheard.
MLK Jr. - “The Other America,” 1968
Love this quote, everyone starts with the last sentence and sometimes include a few sentences after that but I think this section is the most generically useful bit. This applies everywhere for every struggle of the oppressed.
Wise words, but I think even MLK Jr would say take the peaceful approach first. You have to give peace a chance. If that doesn’t work, you escalate from there, but you don’t go scorched earth without trying the alternatives first.
His way was nonviolent, not peaceful.
What he was doing and why is often buried in history class - you could put it as “exploiting the system until everyone feels the hurt”
Civil disobedience wasn’t about a message or public sentiment - they were about getting arrested. You make a scene, the police are called, you refuse to cooperate until they’re forced to arrest you.
Having been arrested, they either let you go and you do it again, or they charge you - and now you’re in the court system. Now you have standing to challenge the laws, appeal to higher courts, and counter-sue
They tied up the courts, ground businesses to a halt, and disrupted people’s lives
It wasn’t physically violent, but it was violent in a more metaphorical way. They didn’t win over hearts and minds… They just made it more politically costly to keep fighting them off than to give in
And there’s an argument to be made that this all wouldn’t have worked without the black Panthers… Their purpose was to show up armed when the police came to black neighborhoods. They were an unspoken threat - we’re playing within the rules of the system, but if you break them all bets are off
