I don’t like Biden either, but anyone with half a brain knows there are two choices in the 2020 election. If we had a sane voting system, voting third party might be worth it, but as it stands, no one but you knows your favorite candidate exists and unless you want to become their campaign manager that will still be true in November. Even if you did, and even if you convinced two thirds of the people who would otherwise have voted for Biden to vote for your chosen candidate instead, Trump would still win because half the country voted for him and your guy only got a third. If you vote third party you might as well stay home.
Not voting isn’t going to stop the genocide in Gaza. The US will continue to funnel them arms no matter which candidate wins this November. Trump practically campaigns on how much he hates the Jews and he’s publicly told Israel to “finish up their war”. He’ll also make life a living hell for anyone who isn’t a straight cisgender male back here at home.
A vote for a candidate is not an endorsement of them or their policies, it’s a statement that you like their policies more than the other guy’s, and “sticking it to liberals” and “refusing to support genocide” (that’s not what voting for Biden is doing, by the way – a vote for either candidate is a vote for genocide and a vote for neither is an endorsement of both) is not more important than keeping the furthest right politician America has ever seen out of office.
How incredibly privileged do you have to be to see an entire national election as what will happen in the Middle East and ignore Trump’s campaign promises to wipe transgender Americans off the map, and further, to not realize that the same thing will happen in the Middle East regardless of which candidate wins?
I hate Biden as much as every other leftist here. But I’ll still vote for him because Trump is worse. If there’s a single bone in your body that cares about the lives of your trans friends you will too.
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You seem mad at ME because THEY don’t give enough of a shit
I’ve been saying it for MONTHS. If they run biden they WILL lose.
I do not WANT them to lose, I am just informing you of the outcome babe.
I’m voting for a third party instead of the slightly less evil fascist. I recommend y’all do as well. Dr. West and Claudia La Cruz are good options.
If you’re not in a swing state I recommend you do the same.
Step 1: defeat Trump Step 2: help reshape Democratic party
Because the fact is, if we don’t do step 1 first, we’ll have our work cut out for us the next four or more years just being back in ‘The Resistance’. Which you know isn’t going to make the Dems more liberal, it’s going to pull them to the right as more dissatisfied Trump voters finally peel off.
On the other hand, the more resounding of a defeat we can dish out to the GQP and MAGA, the easier it will be to send them into the wilderness to regroup politically so we can focus all of our energies on the Democratic party.
Fuck that, pass electoral reform so people can vote 3rd party with no spoiler effect and leave these dinosaur political parties in the past where they belong.
Do you think it’ll be easier or harder to get electoral reform passed if Trump is elected?
I think that the threat of losing to trump is the most powerful leverage progressives and leftists have at getting actual reformation of the party, and this election is the democrats race to lose.
So right now everyone who is pissed at Biden or the democrats, should be letting their anger known and be as loud as possible about it
Agreed.
Either moderate and liberal voters along with establishment Democrats and Biden make a big pivot or this will go down in history as a lesson: do not fuck with labor.
We defeated Trump in 2020. Nothing changed and Biden spent his entire term catering to liberals and moderates.
Sorry if I am missing your point - did you think he’d cater to conservatives?
Lol! I expected him to make material compromises with the millions of progressives and leftists who held their nose and voted for him. The fact that you seem completely unaware of these factions Democrats depend on to win votes is just… a perfect example of how out of touch liberal and moderate voters are. They can’t win elections without our votes. They need to start acting like it.
Okay so you’re saying he isn’t liberal enough I guess. I am pretty far left myself and would of course love more but I would argue that he’s also gotten a lot of pretty great leftist stuff accomplished.
And while we should absolutely hold his feet to the fire to pull him further left, saying “earn my vote or else” with the ‘or else’ being Trump, is not a very practical threat. Like a cut off your nose to spite your face kind of stupid.
If you want to see the things you care about set back another four years OR MORE than sure, don’t vote for Biden this year.
How has Biden meaningfully moved America towards some form of worker ownership of the Means of Production, and away from Capitalist ownership of the Means of Production?
When will the Democrats move to the left? Will it be next election? What about the one after that? Why has this same line been tossed for decades, prevent fascism now, leftism later?
I ask this as a leftist that will probably hold my nose and vote for Biden: why on Earth do you imagine the DNC will ever move leftwards, instead of remaining liberal right-wingers?
Okay so you’re saying he isn’t liberal enough I guess. I am pretty far left myself and would of course love more but
I’m not trying to tell you what to call yourself but if you spend all your time and energy arguing against leftists instead of moderates and liberals what exactly makes you left? Call yourself whatever you like but your actions are indistinguishable from a moderate or a liberal.
I would argue that he’s also gotten a lot of pretty great leftist stuff accomplished.
🙄Oh please, do tell me what material leftist victory was made by Biden. A bunch of corporate handouts? Not leftist. Passing the IRA? That was the BBB stripped of everything leftists and progressives were excited about. Maybe you’re so delusional you think blocking a rail strike is a leftist victory. Or maybe you think shipping weapons to a country committing genocide is some kind of leftist victory. Or raising the defense budget. Or forcing federal workers back to the office. Or setting Yellen and Powell on a war path against American workers.
You clearly have no idea what you’re talking about.
If you want to see the things you care about set back another four years OR MORE than sure, don’t vote for Biden this year.
The stuff I care about was already held back four years with Biden.
Like a cut off your nose to spite your face kind of stupid.
Yeah I’ve heard this plenty. You realize this cuts both ways right? Moderate and liberal voters refusing to compromise with leftists and progressives is every bit the same. Why are you trying to hold progressives and leftists to a different standard?
I’m arguing with other leftists because I have hope that I can help them make the right choice strategically while countering the rampant rightwing disinfo which like it or not, that’s what you’re parroting.
Again, you’re indistinguishable from a moderate or a liberal. You talk like one, you act like one, you vote like one. Regardless of what you believe you’re not doing anything that would accomplish anything we’re fighting for.
And republicans and fascists and corporations and Wall Street… hmmm but he did almost cancel a lot of student debt, but actual trying to cancel most people’s student debt was “too high”. No cracking down on predatory lending or anything. Plenty of other countries have free college, but its just too damn hard in the worlds richest country, you know jack.
Earn the vote Biden.
He can’t do it because Congress is too divided because you didn’t fucking vote.
Who didn’t vote? What senate races were reasonably within reach that people didn’t show up for? Same question for the house.
Me when I don’t understand what the house and senate are.
Not advocating for voting third partu, but how do you genuinley plan on reshaping the democrat party, and how would this time be different, compared to the past?
This is my question too. I’m old (Gen X), and I’ve never seen the Democrats acting progressive. The last time I had hope was in 08 when I volunteered for the Obama campaign, only for him to out himself as yet another conservative wearing progressive clothes once he took office.
The correct answer is that politicians are not simply groups of “good” and “evil” people, but people acting in the interests of the US state, and by extension the wealthy Capitalists that guide it.
Democrats are not a party of positive, incremental change, even if that’s how they position themselves. They act swiftly in the direction of liberalism, and only make concessions to leftists and progressives when they become threatening, not when leftists cooperate.
Waiting and voting harder for the least worst candidates just continues their existing trends, if the Dems had overwhelming support they would continue to do the bare minimum.
It’s not a coincidence that the GOP is far more radically fascist, that’s where they get their votes! That’s why the GOP manages to do a lot of damage, because if they didn’t, they would get tossed aside for another party. They cling on with barely enough support to occasionally get elected despite Democrat majority.
I wish I could upvote this one more than once. This is spot on, I think.
Maybe Marx had some good ideas, that’s all I’m saying, haha.
I think “Marx had some good ideas” is a statement leftists of every ideology can agree on!
This is a really contrived hypothesis and probably wishful thinking considering the current state of the world, but hear me out:
You know how the Overton window gets shifted? Rightwing voters grew a lot in the US and Democrats had to get more to the right to appeal to them and not keep losing.
We just need to force the reverse. If Democrats keep winning elections Republicans will be forced to put out a candidate that’s more palatable to leftists sooner or later. Someone who isn’t a literal movie villain. At that point, Democrats will lose their only selling point (being the alternative to Satan himself), and they will have to actually push for leftist policies to get people to vote.
This can only happen if Democrats win a lot of times in a row though. Even one Republican win will ensure them that they can keep pushing fascists and have a chance to win.
The thing I generally disagree with is the idea that Democrats would move leftward, and not just further into Liberalism. Even Social Democracies in the Nordic countries are seeing a decrease in the welfare state, just like Reagan did with FDR-era policies.
Sorry I wasn’t clear - I’m saying if you care about reshaping the Dems, you do it after we defeat Trump.
There is no guarantee it will be different this time, that’s politics. But giving up on it isn’t an option - politics happens to us whether we are active or not. But if you’re hoping for change, it’ll be a lot harder to see if Trump gets reelected. I promise you that.
That same line was told during 2020, 2016, 2008, 2000, and so forth. Where is the leftist concession? Where is the Democratic party being pushed? How are you planning on achieving change?
You’re basically just repeating yourself now. Like it or not, you’re parroting the played out lines that the Trumpist want us to repeat to strengthen their hand.
Politics isn’t easy but ‘burn it down because they’re not catering to me’ is not a responsible vote this year.
When will it be time? How do you plan on shaping dems? You’re repeating yourself here.
I don’t know what you’re even asking - how do I personally plan to shape the party? If I could wave a magic wand I would but obviously it’s something that is shaped by the collective and we all need to be engaged in the various areas we are passionate about.
This ‘cater to me or else’ sort of nihilism is the laziest sort of attitude and I get really tired of seeing it in liberal circles. I can tell you’re passionate and are probably very politically active in your own ways, but so many people seem to think that withholding their vote will sove the problem and that it then somehow absolves them of having to do anything else.
You’re wrong on quite a few things here.
How can a leftist meaninfully convince a liberal Capitalist party to move leftward, rather than continuing liberalism? Seriously speaking, if I am a leftist, and I want Leftist change, how do you think I should go about doing that?
It’s not nihilism, it’s not liberalism, and it’s not “cater to me or else,” that’s pure condescension. I am also not planning on witholding my vote, I want genuine leftist change.
Why does promising to vote for liberalism, a right wing ideology, help Leftists unless the DNC feels threatened by a lack of progressive support and thus concedes?
The moment Trump was defeated in 2020 liberal and moderates did exactly what they always do: demand priority over leftists and progressives in every policy disagreement and Biden was happy to oblige.
No. Moderate voters, liberal voters, the DNC, establishment Democrats and Biden will all reshape now or lose to Trump. Make a choice.
I’m sorry but this is basically the same argument that I got multiple others in this thread so instead of answering again, I’m going to ask you a question.
What exactly is y’alls game plan then? How do you think you’ll benefit by punishing Biden and helping get Trump elected?
Your question attempts to hold progressives and leftists to a different standard than moderates and liberals.
What is the game plan of moderates, liberals, establishment Democrats and Biden? How do they think they’ll benefit by refusing to make material compromises with leftists and progressives?
You told me this last fucking election and nothing has changed.
I lost my reproductive freedoms
I fear for my wife’s life whenever we have to travel out of state - she’s trans
Clarance fucking Thomas is threatening to undo gay marriage.
The democrats have done NOTHING for me. And instead i’m watching half of them cheerlead a fucking genocide of brown people in the middle east
How are they different from republicans? How is biden different than trump? He’s trying to pass trump’s immigration plan while letting Bibi murder his neighbors.
Nah fam. I’m officially giving up. People like you who refuse to hold democrats to account have made life worse for everyone.
I’m sorry but you are blaming the wrong people for all of this
no, no… i think they’re onto something
It’s clear y’all are trolls at this point
Except step one is repeated every. damn. time.
Its never time to reshape the Democratic Party. If the democrats win, it will be too early to fix the Democratic Party for millions of reasons. And four years pass and every campaign promise is ignored, and all of a sudden it’s back to 1. Beat the new threat to “democracy” 2. Fix the Democratic Party… ad nauseam forever.
It’s never too early to help shape the Democratic party, absolutely do it now. But it’s a long process and if you can’t see how it has changed in the last 20 years already I don’t know what to tell you. And beating Trump is priority #1 if we’re going to continue on that path.
We can’t do that if people don’t vote actual leftist in the primaries because “commies won’t win the general”.
Why are you trying to pressure people to vote for the guy facilitating genocide, instead of for Biden to stop facilitating genocide?
The only explanations I can come up with are either that you support what he is doing, or on some level, you understand we have no influence on policy and so trying to get Biden to do things that will get people to vote for him is a waste of time.
This same shit happened when Obama did fuckall about Bush’s policies and endlessly compromised. Of course, the voters were blamed when Obama lost the house and senate, and in 2016 too.
OP explicitly states a vote for Biden isnt a vote for genocide.
Regardless, Trump would be an absolute nightmare for the Palestinians…so your argument is not in good faith and just want to invoice emotional responses.
OP recognizes the system there is right now in the US is badly flawed, but since nobody did shit about fixing it these last 4 years you have a choice of pinching your nose and swallowing bad medicine or never have a voice again.
Israel is already getting all they want from the US, you really can’t call a side participating in ethnic cleansing a lesser evil, we’re already at 100% evil.
But this misses the point, to even be posting this shows that you have no hope that Biden will stop the genocide. If you expected the democrats to listen to the people whose votes they need, you’d be telling us he’s gonna do the thing we all want and stop the genocide any day now, and begging the dems to not fuck this up.
You can make the same argument as a christofascist about abortion, they consider all forms of birth control genocide and are single issue voters.
Politicians, like corporations, will never change unless forced to, I really dont expect anything from the democratic party except the status quo until enough incremental changes at the local and state level finally start pulling the countey back to the left…the other option is absolutely worse.
Being a single issue voter is ridiculous, but you do you.
The christofascists’s representatives fall over each other trying to show how christian and fascist they are, implement the policies the christofascists want by any means, and in return the christofacists vote for them.
The democrats either do fuckall or what the republicans want, and then tell us better things aren’t possible or it’s our fault for not voting harder.
Guess which one is a more effective electoral strategy?
Well in that case, I’m explicitly stating that a vote for Biden is a vote for a dog taking a crap right in your mouth…
That’s not how it works, if you vote for the guy doing a genocide, you are voting for genocide.
I am highly doubtful trump would be worse. All his rhetoric is about ending the conflict, and he was significantly more peaceful than every other president dating back to Reagan at least. He got us out of Afghanistan and didn’t start a new war, unlike every other president since Reagan.
A well thought out, succinct, and highly intelligent comment.
Thinking Trump won’t be worse just shows your privilege. There are thousands of immigrants that can’t survive being deported, millions of women that will lose their rights, and countless lgbt people that might get murdered.
Just because your life is unaffected by who is in power doesn’t mean you can throw every body else under the bus.
I am highly doubtful trump would be worse.
Lol.
🙈
Do you honestly think Trump would even try to negotiate a ceasefire?
obviously trump wouldnt do anything better, but he couldnt possibly do any worse, since there isnt anything more vile than literal genocide! if anything trump is the harm reduction candidate, since he will unintentionally accelerate the inevitable decline of the fascist us empire.
death to america
death to israel
Trump will do whatever people pay him the most to do as long as it’s not upholding his oath of office.
It’s crazy to me that you don’t have a mandatory voting system. Hopefully enough on the left gets out and votes. I do have a feeling that due to tRump losing a portion of his base, he may lose simply because of a lack of votes.
I’ll be voting for Kennedy.
No.
I will never vote for Joe Biden again.
If anyone reading wants some apolitical food for thought: your average “no-to-Joe” leftist has a straightforward “I won’t vote for genocidares” explanation. The liberals opposite them have a wall of text about game theory and harm reduction.
🤔
The thing is, the game theorists aren’t wrong. If you want to vote your feelings, that’s your right. It’s exactly what the ~1/3 of Trump supports are doing.
And much like them, you aren’t even required to understand the consequences of your actions to do so! (Assuming you’re privileged enough to never have to face them, of course)
For the game theorists to not be wrong, endorsing a genocide has to also not be wrong.
You’re just trying to get anti-Trump people to not vote so Trump can win. Anyone with half a brain knows that Joe Biden didn’t do a genocide.
If I wanted trump to win I’d tell people to vote for trump.
Well I’m glad you live in a fantasy world where your abstinence doesn’t have real world impact that is demonstrably worse, specifically in regards to the very genocide to which you refer, but unfortunately the rest of us live in the real world where sometimes we have to evaluate the weight of ideological purity vs real world harm impact.
it’s a little disingenuous to call not supporting a genocide ideological purity.
i mean, i guess it’s a technically correct categorization, but the people who dont have that particular ideological purity are nazis, so…
i don’t plan to abstain though. PSL is lookin good for president.
Pumpkin Spice Latte ain’t winning a thing. That’s exactly as good as not voting, which benefits republicans every time.
how do you figure that?
i cast a vote for party for socialism and liberation and it gets counted for that party. thats not at all the same as not voting. that vote doesn’t get counted for the republican party so it doesn’t benefit them.
Voting isn’t a chess game. I just vote to my ideals. I hope more people do, because it’s the only way things will ever change, sans revolution.
Saying “if I don’t get my way entirely I’m taking the ball and going home” is the opposite of how progress happens.
And as a follow-up, aside from voting, what other real on-the-grounds steps have you taken to progress or legitimize real leftism in America?
Who says I’m left?
Sorry, I just assumed you were decent
I’m fairly moderate, and extremely moderate for a Lemmy user.
I’m sure you’re decent, even though you try to make fun of me for having a distinct political ideology that doesn’t conform to the leftist internet hivemind.
Most of my biggest priorities are left leaning, but outside the scope of common discourse. Such as independence from Chinese rare earth elements, prohibiting child marriage, and banning cigarettes and tobacco.
Voting isn’t a chess game.
It very much is. Especially if one of the options might result in never having to vote again.
What, are liberals not willing to fight (physically) to get their democracy back from a dictatorship?
Lol, yeah I’m going to organize an armed rebellion against a country that can shoot me in the chest with a fucking rocket covered in swords from the other side of the world while I’m chilling on my deck with my family.
Just put on a red hat and you’ll be fine.
Worked for the average German in the 1930s-40s
Eh, my country has its experience with the “dude is a little bit loony but we’ll manage him” approach. Led to a bit of restructuring, first of the German government, then of the entire continent of Europe.
Seeing how you guys have nukes and all that, I’d prefer you wouldn’t try to verify our results.
Or maybe Americans would be more successful than the Hotel Kaiserhof in Berlin was.
Are you? If so, give me a place and date! I’ll be right there!
If not, then shut the fuck up!
You sound like a cop.
“Their answer is long and nuanced, while mine is short, simple, and makes me feel good about myself. Therefore I’m correct.”
How childish. Get your head out of your own ass please.
excited to hear a feddit poster explain how refusing to endorse a genocide is childish 🍿
let me guess, good liberal democrat voters are just following orders, right?
What’s childish is not acknowledging the 2 facts that
-
Trump will make the genocide worse. Abstaining from a UN security council vote is a pretty flaccid response, but it’s the most any US President has done since since Israel’s inception.
-
The US President has responsibilities and influence beyond whatever Israel is doing. Biden losing increases the chance of a 2nd genocide in Ukraine and potentially an expanding war in Europe. That’s not even mentioning how much worse things are gonna get here for anyone who isn’t a cishet white man.
Your thinking is no different than all the women who kept voting on the single issue of overturning Roe and are now shocked they have to carry dead fetuses to term or be charged with a crime.
-
Trump is your man all the way!
nah, i’m not planning on voting for trump.
Your vote or non-vote is just effectively counted for trump. Fly the Maga flag proudly!
Your vote or non-vote is just effectively counted for trump. Fly the Maga flag proudly!
Are votes for Libertarians votes for Biden? Is that how it works?
Yeah. Last election, I campaigned hard for Jo Jorgensen and Spike Cohen, then I voted for Biden. It was an effective strategy to siphon off the pedophile and racist-but-likes-weed votes away from Trump. A vote for a non-viable third party is just as effective as voting against the real candidate that most closely aligns with your views.
Why not try to actually educate others, rather than manipulate them?
Why not both? That is not my only strategy in life. I educate those willing to learn and I manipulate those trying to intentionally harm humanity.
And they’re bottling tf out of the votes too
The DNC has had more than 6 months to pivot off Biden, out deserve anything that’s coming to you
“My argument is simpler than my opponent’s, therefore it is correct”
The point of examining the straightforward morals of not supporting genocide in opposition to the convoluted justifications people put forward as reasons to vote blue no matter who was not to say that the simplest reasoning is correct, but to shine some light on the assumptions, misunderstandings and vast overvaluation of an individuals voting impact that underpin that argument.
You have to build a fucking mind palace to not just look at the two major parties, say “no thanks, I’m a human being with a soul and heart that feels” and walk away. That’s the point.
I do not know how to tell you that not voting will not make neither candidate win.
At no point have I suggested that people abstain, although it’s better not to vote than to perpetuate either of the two major parties.
And how do you propose doing that?
Idk what you mean or are asking…
Not perpetuate either of the major parties. How do we do that, if not by abstaining?
Anyone that isn’t voting for Biden is helping someone get into office that will implement wildly homophobic and transphobic policies. People in this thread are really showing their cards.
Fucking hell, the liberals are using trans people as an excuse to throw the palestinians under the bus.
Look, if you’re going to disregard the palestinians’ human rights, then there will come a time when you’ll do the same for trans people, and they are amart enough to know that.
The queer people’s greatest strength is solidarity so spoiler alert, this won’t really fly, how about you use your vote as a bargaining chip instead of sTrATegIcALly voting no questions asked?
I’m trans. You’re not helping anything.
Neither are you.
Great comeback, I’m sure Trans people are lining up to thank you for your internet comments.
Same to you from the comment I replied to. Really added a lot there. Surely I wasn’t lambasting your idiotic retort.
Neither is voting blindly, which can be used as a justification for Biden doing nothing against the genocide. Being passive is making things worse.
Why do you think Trump will do anything other than make it worse?
https://www.politico.com/news/2024/03/25/trump-says-israel-should-finish-up-gaza-war-00148910
See what happens to the Palestinians when Trump gets elected you lazy piece of shit. I’m done with you self-serving assholes.
Tankies and their ilk don’t understand the concept of “worse”. They are only intelligent enough to understand “Biden means genocide, can’t vote for him”, anything outside that thought is beyond their capacity.
I mean, what do you expect from people who think that strategies that failed 100 years ago are somehow going to work now in a totally different world?
See what’s happening to the Palestinians now under Biden.
Tell me why you think it would be different under Trump.
Edit: Did you even read the article you linked? That is Trump telling Israel’s leader that he needs to stop attacking Palestinians. Do you think that’s bad?
I never said or implied that it would be. It won’t be different under Biden either. Which is my point.
Although there is a case to be made about Biden’s long history of gleefully jumping at every chance he gets to murder Arabs over his entire political career.
Edit: Did you even read the article you linked? That is Trump telling Israel’s leader that he needs to stop attacking Palestinians.
I simply do not think that is true. Here’s an article from Politico in which he describes himself as “the most pro-Israel president ever” and implies he endorses the continued use of force.
I never said or implied that it would be. It won’t be different under Biden either. Which is my point.
And your proposed alternative is what? Voting third party? Even if you convinced two thirds of the people who would otherwise have voted for Biden to vote for the same third party candidate instead, Trump would still win because half the country voted for him and your guy only got a third. It’s not viable. Never will be as long as we use first-past-the-post.
Although there is a case to be made about Biden’s long history of gleefully jumping at every chance he gets to murder Arabs over his entire political career.
Tell me more about that.
Advocating people put political pressure on a candidate to change policy = lazy.
Getting off your ass once every few years to vote, and do it unconditionally = the embodiment of activism.
ps. Calling me lazy for not voting in the americans’ elections is a very smart move.
A bargaining chip backed by what? “Clean up your act or you’ll lose one of your approximately 100 million votes?”
Oh, but no, we should get all our friends in on it too, so they’ll lose maybe 10,000 of their 100 million votes if they don’t clean up their act.
No one but you knows your favorite third-party candidate exists, and unless you want to become their campaign manager that will still be true in November. Even if you did, and even if you convinced two thirds of the people who would otherwise have voted for Biden to vote for your chosen candidate instead, Trump would still win because half the country voted for him and your guy only got a third. If you vote third party you might as well stay home.
Not voting isn’t going to stop the genocide in Gaza. The US will continue to funnel them arms no matter which candidate wins this November. Trump practically campaigns on how much he hates the Jews and he’s publicly told Israel to “finish up their war” so that life for Israelis can go back to normal. He’ll also make life a living hell for anyone who isn’t a straight cisgender male back here at home.
A vote for a candidate is not an endorsement of them or their policies, it’s a statement that you like their policies more than the other guy’s, and “sticking it to liberals” and “refusing to support genocide” (that’s not what voting for Biden is doing, by the way – a vote for either candidate is a vote for genocide and a vote for neither is an endorsement of both) is not more important than keeping the furthest right politician America has ever seen out of office.
Anyone who doesn’t vote immediately loses the right to complain for the next 4 years.
Don’t like it? Should’ve done your duty and put in a vote.
Fuck you, fence sitters
I’m not okay with either of them having a second term right now.
I’m voting for the people I most like on the ballot. Isn’t that what you’re supposed to do?
In the primaries but not the general
No, not in FPTP. You vote for the candidate who you least disagree with out of those with a reasonable chance of victory, or you waste your vote.
FPTP stands for First Past The Post voting for anyone wondering what the acronym means.
So… by voting my conscience I don’t get a vote? I was literally brought up with the idea that if enough people pressure one of the parties one way or the other they might start embracing your ideas. And that was supposed to be how this worked.
The time to advance your ideas is everywhen except the presidential election, basically. At this timing, voting your conscience will really only be contributing to the spoiler effect.
I don’t have millions of dollars to advance my ideas, all I have is my vote.
I’m sorry, that is a ridiculous statement, but I’m not awake enough to go into it in detail. Hoping someone else can help if you were being sincere.
why on earth would any party listen to what you have to say if you preface everything you’re campaigning for with “by the way, i’m still going to vote for you”
your vote is all they want in this scenario
it would be like opening a negotiation with “by the way, i’m absolutely going to pay whatever price you think is fair at the end of this, but i’d like you to consider giving me a discount anyway”
There are other elections, primaries, donations, and general social pressure. The sad part is you’re right, committing to vote for the lesser evil every time does reduce pressure and influence. However, it’s not a flaw in the voting strategy, it’s a flaw in the voting system.
The alternative is to abstain or vote for someone with no chance, in which case you end up with the greater evil in office who has four years to inflict permanent damage on people and further corrupt the system. You may show the less-evil party that you don’t agree with them and that they need to rethink some policies, but the point is moot if they aren’t in power and now the greater evil can do things like appoint three SCOTUS justices, irreversibly damage the environment, and pass voting “reform” to lessen the impact of your future votes. Your message is sent, yes, but the overall impact is bad for everyone and reduces your future influence.
In a FPTP system, that’s the sad reality we are given. There really is no better choice than to vote for the lesser evil in the presidential election. That’s why ranked choice voting would be such a game changer, then you truly can vote for your favorite without helping your least favorite gain office.
You have more influence the smaller the election is, which is partly why it’s so important to vote in every election, especially your local elections. Local elections also more directly impact your community and broad elections are impacted by them too! Nearly all higher-up politicians start local, and the larger parties look to local elections to see what gets people out to vote. Plus, if you hate all of your options in a local election, it’s much more possible to run yourself and actually have a change at winning. You aren’t just voting for candidates either, there’s almost always projects, new laws, and funding allocations to vote for locally.
other elections, primaries
but those are both votes
ideally, yeah, if you wanted to exercise pressure on the biden administration, you wouldn’t withhold your vote in this specific election, but those “other elections” have already passed
you could vote differently for the house and senate, but arguably that might actually lead to a worse outcome
donations
if you’re very rich, then maybe, but most people aren’t
general social pressure
general social pressure means very little without votes to back it up
sanders has a tidal wave of social pressure behind him, but then lost the primary, so nothing changed
it’s why every time a politician tries to campaign for young voters, they crash and burn, because while young voters often inflict the most social pressure, they never actually go and vote
The alternative is to abstain or vote for someone with no chance
the point isn’t to vote for the person to get them into office
the point is to vote for the person whose policies you prefer, so that you shift the other candidates closer to that position
yeah, 4 years of a very bad candidate is worse than 4 years of a meh candidate, but if you vote that way forever your candidate will never be anything more than meh
appoint three SCOTUS justices, irreversibly damage the environment, and pass voting “reform” to lessen the impact of your future votes
if you think this outweighs the benefit of improving the democrat position going forward, and that’s a perfectly reasonable position to have, then sure vote for them
but don’t act like you never had any choice in the matter, or that voting for somebody else would be meaningless
vote for the person you like the most
voting for the democrats come hell or high water is how you end up with two candidates nobody wants to vote for
You were lied to. It should work that way but it doesn’t, and that -really- sucks.
But now what do you do with that understanding? Do you continue to try and will the lie into being, or do you act according to the truth?
So many dumb Americans here not voting. Cutting off your legs so you can hold the moral high ground. Moronic.
This will be the most important election in the history of the united states. You have two choices, Dictator, or Democracy. A no vote is a vote AGAINST Democracy.
I worry what will happen if Trump wins or loses. If he wins, it will be terrible. If he loses, he will claim he won again and he will try another insurrection, but harder.
