I think that many other things would be much worse if Trump were in power. This is a “both sides” logical fallacy, and the argument really shouldn’t even be thought about given the consequences of Trump being put into power a second time
Trump would be openly supporting the complete removal of the Palestinian people from Gaza. There likely wouldn’t have been any ceasefires, and there would be no voices from the US behind the scenes pushing Israel to moderate what they’re doing. Without a doubt, the situation in Gaza would be worse right now if Trump were president.
I’d argue the situation in Gaza would be exactly the same. The only thing that would be different is the political language around it all. Asking Israel nicely to maybe genocide less people, vs not doing that at all is going to lead to the same outcome, which is Israel continuing to do whatever they want while we send them money.
There are core imperialist efforts that neither party will ever push back on because it’s political suicide. Israel and this genocide are one of them.
i think you can point out how “the better party” is horrible, manipulative, and lying without saying the they are equal to the worse party or endorsing that worse party.
Yeah, I’d never vote for the Republican party but holy shit I’m going to pressure the DNC to give us a non geriatric candidate every moment I can. I will criticize the failures of the Democratic party so loudly and publicly because that’s the only (non violent) way to get them to change. We need a better candidate, a better party, and a better country.
Not only this (but also this), but Biden is literally the sitting president. We’re supposed to be able to criticize and pressure the sitting president into doing better, and it would sure be nice if we could do so without status quo defending establishment Democrats hand waving our concerns away.
As a democratic voter, I’m frankly pretty exhausted of the both sides defense by democrats. Any critical examination, any fair criticism, is met with “that’s both-sidesism”. Is it really both-sidesism if both sides genuinely suck ass? Oh, excuse me, I didn’t realize you can’t criticize democrats for being corporatist pro-genocide fuck ups because the republicans are actual Nazis. I guess we won’t be able to criticize the democrats for becoming Nazis when the republicans become the party of skynet-worshipping nuclear extinction cultists, because at least the democrats don’t plan on killing everyone.
It’s not a republican plot to expect better policies and leadership from your party of choice. It’s not both-sidesism to be able to be critical of shit decisions from your team. It’s being a thinking human participating in a society instead of a brain dead vote machine. I understand the republicans can’t win or else, but that’s been the excuse for why we can’t ask for better policies since 2012 at least, probably longer. How long are we going to play this dumb fuck game of getting dragged further right on the Overton window while kicking the dirt and saying “well, at least they’re not the republicans”? This is a losing game, and if we keep it up, we’re going to be arguing about how soon we should be closing the death camps for the homeless while Florida goes underwater and the Gulf stream shuts down. I already know I’m not going to vote for the Nazis, but I’d like to vote for some policies I actually want.
If you were to listen to the critics on lemmy, they’ll argue that this is empowering Trump.
However, the actual effect of VBNMW has been that we’ve ended up with weak Democrats making indefensible policy choices, a time where candidates need to show how they are different than the other side (but largely can’t). The effect of a lack of criticism on Democrats, by offering your vote with no constraints, is that they do not respond to your policy positions.
The recent Michigan upset, which should be an extraordinary shot across the bow for Democrats nationally, is exactly how voting should work. Ro Khanna and Michigan Dems are completely right to have organized this protest vote, and now Biden needs to come to them on policy.
Thinking you can brow-beat voters, or guilt, or shame, or demand voters into supporting your party “or else something worse” is basically what Hillary did in 2016. And it doesn’t matter that she won the popular vote because she lost it where it counts. You can’t abuse your voting base into liking someone or something that they don’t. But you’ll see people here defending that action out of national Democrats constantly.
Its Bidens job to get voters excited about voting for him. Its how you win an election. You identify voting blocks, and you give them incentive and create common cause by voting for you. Trump is doing it on the stump daily. Terrible incentives. Disgusting causes being promoted. But he’s out there earning voters and Biden is not. Biden is losing support. If ~10% of likely Democrat Michiganders don’t vote for Biden because he is supporting the genocide of the Palestinian people (and he currently is), I can’t blame them. Its not their fault Biden has taken this policy position that is orthogonal to the position of the people who would vote for him.
If this is about winning the election as the VBNMW crowd would claim, the strategy of not expecting Biden to respond to voter criticism is one that will deliver us Trump in 2024. IF you want a higher probability for success, you need to hold Biden to a higher standard or find a better candidate. You will not get there abusing the voting base.
I guess we won’t be able to criticize the democrats for becoming Nazis when the republicans become the party of skynet-worshipping nuclear extinction cultists, because at least the democrats don’t plan on killing everyone.
I think that many other things would be much worse if Trump were in power. This is a “both sides” logical fallacy, and the argument really shouldn’t even be thought about given the consequences of Trump being put into power a second time
Trump would be openly supporting the complete removal of the Palestinian people from Gaza. There likely wouldn’t have been any ceasefires, and there would be no voices from the US behind the scenes pushing Israel to moderate what they’re doing. Without a doubt, the situation in Gaza would be worse right now if Trump were president.
I’d argue the situation in Gaza would be exactly the same. The only thing that would be different is the political language around it all. Asking Israel nicely to maybe genocide less people, vs not doing that at all is going to lead to the same outcome, which is Israel continuing to do whatever they want while we send them money.
There are core imperialist efforts that neither party will ever push back on because it’s political suicide. Israel and this genocide are one of them.
I love your user name and your instance name lol
Fucking epic
Lmao thanks! Never thought I’d see the day where I own a .yachts domain but here we are 😂
i think you can point out how “the better party” is horrible, manipulative, and lying without saying the they are equal to the worse party or endorsing that worse party.
Yeah, I’d never vote for the Republican party but holy shit I’m going to pressure the DNC to give us a non geriatric candidate every moment I can. I will criticize the failures of the Democratic party so loudly and publicly because that’s the only (non violent) way to get them to change. We need a better candidate, a better party, and a better country.
Not only this (but also this), but Biden is literally the sitting president. We’re supposed to be able to criticize and pressure the sitting president into doing better, and it would sure be nice if we could do so without status quo defending establishment Democrats hand waving our concerns away.
Which is conveniently what I have been being told since I started voting Democrat over 20 years ago.
In their eyes, the best time to criticize the Democrats is never because there is always another election coming up.
Yes, so much this! The moment Biden took office and immediately started opening more concentration camps, the Democrats were already doing this!
It’s just a tactic used to silence leftists and progressives while trying to shame us into voting for whatever ghoul they prop up for election.
As a democratic voter, I’m frankly pretty exhausted of the both sides defense by democrats. Any critical examination, any fair criticism, is met with “that’s both-sidesism”. Is it really both-sidesism if both sides genuinely suck ass? Oh, excuse me, I didn’t realize you can’t criticize democrats for being corporatist pro-genocide fuck ups because the republicans are actual Nazis. I guess we won’t be able to criticize the democrats for becoming Nazis when the republicans become the party of skynet-worshipping nuclear extinction cultists, because at least the democrats don’t plan on killing everyone.
It’s not a republican plot to expect better policies and leadership from your party of choice. It’s not both-sidesism to be able to be critical of shit decisions from your team. It’s being a thinking human participating in a society instead of a brain dead vote machine. I understand the republicans can’t win or else, but that’s been the excuse for why we can’t ask for better policies since 2012 at least, probably longer. How long are we going to play this dumb fuck game of getting dragged further right on the Overton window while kicking the dirt and saying “well, at least they’re not the republicans”? This is a losing game, and if we keep it up, we’re going to be arguing about how soon we should be closing the death camps for the homeless while Florida goes underwater and the Gulf stream shuts down. I already know I’m not going to vote for the Nazis, but I’d like to vote for some policies I actually want.
If you were to listen to the critics on lemmy, they’ll argue that this is empowering Trump.
However, the actual effect of VBNMW has been that we’ve ended up with weak Democrats making indefensible policy choices, a time where candidates need to show how they are different than the other side (but largely can’t). The effect of a lack of criticism on Democrats, by offering your vote with no constraints, is that they do not respond to your policy positions.
The recent Michigan upset, which should be an extraordinary shot across the bow for Democrats nationally, is exactly how voting should work. Ro Khanna and Michigan Dems are completely right to have organized this protest vote, and now Biden needs to come to them on policy.
Thinking you can brow-beat voters, or guilt, or shame, or demand voters into supporting your party “or else something worse” is basically what Hillary did in 2016. And it doesn’t matter that she won the popular vote because she lost it where it counts. You can’t abuse your voting base into liking someone or something that they don’t. But you’ll see people here defending that action out of national Democrats constantly.
Its Bidens job to get voters excited about voting for him. Its how you win an election. You identify voting blocks, and you give them incentive and create common cause by voting for you. Trump is doing it on the stump daily. Terrible incentives. Disgusting causes being promoted. But he’s out there earning voters and Biden is not. Biden is losing support. If ~10% of likely Democrat Michiganders don’t vote for Biden because he is supporting the genocide of the Palestinian people (and he currently is), I can’t blame them. Its not their fault Biden has taken this policy position that is orthogonal to the position of the people who would vote for him.
If this is about winning the election as the VBNMW crowd would claim, the strategy of not expecting Biden to respond to voter criticism is one that will deliver us Trump in 2024. IF you want a higher probability for success, you need to hold Biden to a higher standard or find a better candidate. You will not get there abusing the voting base.
Nostradamus is back!
Tell the Gazans it’s a fallacy.