• gravitas_deficiency@sh.itjust.works
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    98
    arrow-down
    7
    ·
    11 months ago

    So uh… Israel… I’m pretty sure “never forget” doesn’t mean “we should practice it so we don’t forget how to conduct an efficient genocide”

        • cannache@slrpnk.net
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          7
          arrow-down
          2
          ·
          11 months ago

          Literally selective sympathies huh. I just don’t get why they can’t make things better with people instead of burning literal food to try win.

    • BlanketsWithSmallpox@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      5
      arrow-down
      25
      ·
      edit-2
      11 months ago

      I wonder, is there any nation or entity the US doesn’t fund?

      Can’t get played when you play all sides.

      I always love how two nations genocide each other and every English speaking forum ends up with ‘How dare the USA’ lol.

      It’s like people who can do nothing but blame the parents on their child going onto murder everyone when sometimes your child is just shit lol. You absolve so much of their personal responsibility by blaming the son for fathers behavior.

      People really just don’t like the fact that people can and will do evil shit without much justification simply by the way their genetics and culture work.

      • Caradoc879@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        18
        arrow-down
        3
        ·
        11 months ago

        Did you just say people do evil things because of their genetics?

        holy fucking genetic supremecy, batman.

        • BlanketsWithSmallpox@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          2
          arrow-down
          23
          ·
          edit-2
          11 months ago

          Caradoc879 0 points 9 minutes ago

          Did you just say people do evil things because of their genetics?

          holy fucking genetic supremecy, batman.

          What kind of simple minded asinine take are you appeal to extreme’ing about?

          Helicopter or hands-off parenting? The choice won’t impact a kid as much as you think

          https://www.npr.org/transcripts/1193176710

          Nature versus nurture is a long-standing debate in biology and society about the relative influence on human beings of their genetic inheritance (nature) and the environmental conditions of their development (nurture). The alliterative expression “nature and nurture” in English has been in use since at least the Elizabethan period[1] and goes back to medieval French.[2] The complementary combination of the two concepts is an ancient concept (Ancient Greek: ἁπό φύσεως καὶ εὐτροφίας).[3] Nature is what people think of as pre-wiring and is influenced by genetic inheritance and other biological factors. Nurture is generally taken as the influence of external factors after conception e.g. the product of exposure, experience and learning on an individual.

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nature_versus_nurture

          • Caradoc879@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            16
            arrow-down
            3
            ·
            11 months ago

            You weren’t describing nature vs nurture. You were implying eugenics with your last statement.

            • SoleInvictus@lemmy.world
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              5
              arrow-down
              1
              ·
              edit-2
              11 months ago

              Blankets there seems to have a knack for saying asinine things, then acting outraged and claiming the other person is an idiot when they call them out for saying them. I wouldn’t engage; I’d block them but they’re always good for a laugh.

            • blanketswithsmallpox@kbin.social
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              1
              arrow-down
              4
              ·
              edit-2
              11 months ago

              Do you genuinely believe there are people out there who aren’t born predisposed to violence? This is a well known fact and a reason we have prisons for people who are not able to be rehabilitated. There aren’t nearly as many monsters out there as people think, but they’re there.

              People like serial killers are well known for having relatively normal upbringings but go on to become murderers/rapists. Some even come from loving, caring, and enthusiastic homes.

              People can hand-wave genetic predisposition all they want, it doesn’t make genetic heritability for a multitude of of disorders untrue. Nor does it change how you rolled poorly in the genetic lottery and now you’re stuck with a male brain inside a female body.

              No amount of therapy is going to keep some poor pedophile’s brain wired to find children attractive from finding that they’re attractive. They get to live their entire cursed existence hating themselves even if they never hurt a single kid.

              People give biology way too little credit for the monsters that society has to deal with. And as shown above, a lot of it isn’t due to culture, how you were raised, or if you were loved. It’s because you hit the genetic snake eyes and you don’t have the little thing in the back of your brain that finds rape and murder repulsive.

              Genetics doesn’t absolve them of their guilt, but it’s one piece of a puzzle that too few people give credit for. For the same reason why one kid can do coke once and never try it again, and another ends up having their life spiral out of control for a decade due to addiction.

            • chuckleslord@lemmy.world
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              5
              arrow-down
              15
              ·
              11 months ago

              That’s one way to take it, sure. But we all have the ability to other (to distance other people in our minds from what it means to be a “person”), and from there we can do violence to those we’ve othered. It’s a fairly universal human trait. Culture plays into who you might other as well.

    • rivermonster@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      6
      arrow-down
      38
      ·
      edit-2
      11 months ago

      Wouldn’t genocide be an effort to kill all Palestinans everywhere, like the millions in other Arab states?

      You know, instead of focusing on the elected government of Gaza (who still has 57%+ support amongst Gazan civilians), who targeted 1200+ civilians intentionally in one of the worst terroist attacks of recent memory?

      • azuth@sh.itjust.works
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        15
        arrow-down
        2
        ·
        11 months ago

        Definition Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide

        Article II

        In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

        in whole or in part. Not that you care, just for anybody wondering what the Geneva convention says. Though people should not base their morality on law, even UN law.

        • rivermonster@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          3
          arrow-down
          15
          ·
          11 months ago

          Which is why Hamas who is intentionally co-locating (and the target of the attacks) in what would otherwise be protected targets is a war crime.

          If Hamas was not using civilian shields and being aided by the majority of Gaza residents who support them, then absolutely it would be a war crime.

          It’s just that unlike many armchair legal scholars here, I’m aware that the intended terrorist targets make this a nonsense legal argument. Again, without Hamas there you’d be correct.

          The convention isn’t written in a vacuum. And misusing and diminishing the term genocide a bad idea.

          • azuth@sh.itjust.works
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            7
            arrow-down
            1
            ·
            11 months ago

            The genocide of Palestinians by Israel has been going on way longer than Hamas has existed.

            I am no armchair legal scholar, I 've already argued against placing too much value on legality. It is you on the other hand who tries to minimize the severity of Israel’s wrongdoings by arguing pseudo-legalistic semantics.

            If the 1948 convention never existed, Israel’s actions would be just as reprehensible.

          • archomrade [he/him]@midwest.social
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            9
            arrow-down
            3
            ·
            11 months ago

            being aided by the majority of Gaza residents who support them

            “It’s not genocide, but if it is they deserve it”

            Fucking disgusting Nazi logic.

            • rivermonster@lemmy.world
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              3
              arrow-down
              15
              ·
              edit-2
              11 months ago

              Stating a fact that’s not convenient to your false narrative: “you’re a Nazi”. I realize there are people here who can not reason or be reasoned with—its sad.

              • archomrade [he/him]@midwest.social
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                7
                arrow-down
                3
                ·
                11 months ago

                Stating a fact that’s not convenient to your false narrative

                Which fact? That Gaza civilians deserve to be slaughtered because of their alleged support of Hamas?

                Honestly who are you trying to convince here?

              • orrk@lemmy.world
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                5
                arrow-down
                2
                ·
                11 months ago

                no, collective punishment by genocide is about as Nazi as you get, then again, no wonder you got upset at it, you don’t even view “brown people” as human, they are all Terrorists, every Gaza Child is nothing but another terrorist, so why not kill them?

      • SoleInvictus@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        9
        arrow-down
        4
        ·
        edit-2
        11 months ago

        In case anyone is on the fence about this issue and doesn’t realize this is easily disproven misinformation, there hasn’t been an election for the president or legislature in Palestine since 2006.. Hamas has maintained a stranglehold on the region for seventeen years by discontinuing elections.

        Even if that was true, this is a bad faith argument anyhow: it’s entirely possible to focus on the atrocities being committed by both sides. Rivermonster simply seems to enjoy regurgitating Israeli propaganda.

        • rivermonster@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          2
          arrow-down
          11
          ·
          11 months ago

          Except that still males them the official and elected government. It’s weird that you want to ignore the facts. That you decide they’re illegitimate just bc it doesn’t fit your narrative is what’s wrong.

          They still have majority support amongst residents. If there were an election today, they’d dominate. Who do you think would win? The PLA, Fatah, and West Bank can’t get rid of them fast enough. They want Hamas in there, too.

          • orrk@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            2
            arrow-down
            1
            ·
            11 months ago

            I will remind you that current official members of the Israeli government mocked a holocaust survivor by saying they deserved it, and if it were up to him, it would have been twice as bad.

                • rivermonster@lemmy.world
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  1
                  arrow-down
                  6
                  ·
                  edit-2
                  11 months ago

                  Why are you so fixated on PoC, are you a racist? Plus, the way you call them “brown ones” is really not okay. Your rhetoric makes it sound pejorative and derogatory.

                  And you do know that there are both Israelis and Jews who are PoC, right? It doesn’t sound like you know that.

      • tygerprints@kbin.social
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        1
        ·
        11 months ago

        That’s true, the elected government of Gaza is a horrible fascist state and they are just as bad as the monsters who are gunning down civilians in that region. However that doesn’t mean the people of Gaza aren’t worth saving and don’t have value. I just don’t understand why, when we’re talking about a relatively small strip of land, the Palestinians can’t have their own self-governed state, free from interference by Israel. Or is that just too much to ask for in this world.

  • Hadriscus@lemm.ee
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    43
    arrow-down
    6
    ·
    11 months ago

    I cannot help but think of nazi Germany when I read this. It’s very similar

  • TWeaK@lemm.ee
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    39
    arrow-down
    3
    ·
    11 months ago

    Retired IDF General Israel Ziv told CNN he had seen the videos and was so disturbed by them that he reached out to IDF commanders in charge of the soldiers involved.

    “I was (told) that the brigade commander will punish the ones who did that once they stop fighting,” he told CNN.

    In its statement to CNN, the IDF said that “disciplinary measures will be taken regarding the soldiers involved.”

    In other words, they’re only interested in punishing the ones that get caught, and they’ll only process it well after it’s happened so they can just deliver a slap on the wrist.

    • letsgocrazy@lemm.ee
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      8
      ·
      11 months ago

      In other words, they’re only interested in punishing the ones that get caught, and they’ll only process it well after it’s happened so they can just deliver a slap on the wrist.

      By definition, you can only punish the ones that get caught.

      • Squizzy@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        25
        arrow-down
        3
        ·
        11 months ago

        Actually the Israelis are very strong supporters of collective punishment, given their stance on Palestinians I would have thought they would execute the families of entire platoons.

  • lolcatnip@reddthat.com
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    43
    arrow-down
    9
    ·
    edit-2
    11 months ago

    Has anyone else noticed how prolific rivermonster is in this thread? And how their comments are full of half-truths that always favor Israeli policy? Weird, isn’t it?

    • SoleInvictus@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      25
      arrow-down
      4
      ·
      edit-2
      11 months ago

      I can’t figure out if they spread propaganda and disinformation professionally or if they just have a hard on for Jewish ethnostates or Muslim genocide.

      Watching their mental gymnastics as they try to justify Israeli’s actions in Palestine while decrying Hamas’s similar behavior is always good for a laugh. Plus how they accuse anyone critical of Zionism to be a Nazi or anti-semite. They’re kinda the worst type of person.

    • AdeptusPrimaris@lemmy.dbzer0.com
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      15
      arrow-down
      3
      ·
      edit-2
      11 months ago

      Spamming the comment section with pro israeli comments or even just muddying the waters. I’ve seen it with a few posters, including rivermonster. It distracts those reading from the real issue being discussed, usually israeli crimes against humanity.

      • orrk@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        5
        arrow-down
        1
        ·
        11 months ago

        generally, they also have problems with the concept of “before / after” or literally say they ignore anything that disagrees with their statement

    • TWeaK@lemm.ee
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      7
      arrow-down
      4
      ·
      edit-2
      11 months ago

      Someone posting a lot of comments in a thread doesn’t necessarily mean much, beyond them engaging with the thread and replying to multiple comments as they scroll through. That isn’t to deny their bias, just to point out that their presence and bias doesn’t necessarily point to some kind of organised action.

      Edit: ok I didn’t have to (nor think I would have to) scroll far down to see that they are clearly a troll. The whole “it’s important to counter false narratives”, while clearly delivering a biased narrative, pretty clearly shows they’re not an honest actor.

  • Sooperstition@lemmy.one
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    36
    arrow-down
    6
    ·
    11 months ago

    The most moral army of the only democracy in the Middle East! If you disagree, you’re homophobic since some of these soldiers are gay

    • tygerprints@kbin.social
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      1
      ·
      11 months ago

      You could say the same about any army. There are some soldiers who are gay in all regiments around the world. But they aren’t there to be gay, they’re doing their job and in a way that’s maybe one of the better things about armies - they tend to be not so concerned about your sexual habits as much as your proficiency in combat.

    • Skates@feddit.nl
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      35
      arrow-down
      4
      ·
      edit-2
      11 months ago

      This is not tragic. This is, has been, and will always be Israeli foreign policy. Ever since the state was created, they were supposed to be a “foothold of civilization in the region”. They have constantly settled outside of borders and into Palestinian territory, and then defended their settlements with their superior firepower. They have constantly waged this type of unorthodox war. They supported Hamas as a tactical strike against the more moderate candidates in Palestine, because you can’t paint moderates as the aggressor as easily - this worked wonders for their PR - they managed to clean their image, because they had an enemy that looked even worse.

      Make no mistake friend - Israel has never been the abused, and throughout their short lifetime as a state they have only abused. They have been conducting an ethnic cleansing in the area. The only hope Palestinians have is that history books write the truth, but seeing as how Israel’s money isn’t running out and their reach is long, even this seems unlikely - just look at all the support they still have despite their foreign policy being literally genocide.

      • aelwero@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        11
        arrow-down
        1
        ·
        11 months ago

        Israel has never been the abuser, and throughout their short lifetime as a state they have only abused.

        I believe you need to edit that… Not in the context of you being “wrong/right” or anything opinion based like that, just that its contradictional… I don’t think it’s what you meant to actually say is all :)

      • rivermonster@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        6
        arrow-down
        31
        ·
        11 months ago

        Yes, ever since being created, the Muslim world has attacked over multiple wars with multiple arab states coordinating. And fortunately they have lost over and over.

        Since the creation of Israel, the Muslim Arab world has stolen the land of 800,000+ jews who lived all over the Arab states. Though you’d never know it reading comments here bc worldnews only feigns outrage at Jews, not on land theft as a principal.

        Meh, never mind, I’m already tired of debunking this silly propaganda virtua-nazi rant. You know your lies.

        • SoleInvictus@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          12
          arrow-down
          3
          ·
          11 months ago

          Your calling anyone else a liar is the height of irony. Israeli genocide apologists all seem to follow the same pattern: spread misleading, often factually incorrect talking points and call anyone with a view critical of Israel a Nazi and/or an anti-semite.

          People are catching on and see through your bullshit. We see that nearly every accusation is a confession, as is often the case with fascists.

      • PopOfAfrica@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        20
        arrow-down
        9
        ·
        11 months ago

        You are being downvoted by people who think Israel = Jews.

        Kind of a racist thought from them.

        • tygerprints@kbin.social
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          1
          arrow-down
          1
          ·
          11 months ago

          Why in fuck would I give a shit about being downvoted. Is that really what you people are here for, to be “upvoted” all the time?? Is that really supposed to frighten me into a retraction of my statement? If I was not being downvoted, I WOULD retract my statement - the whole point is that it’s designed to scare people and get them to downvote and show that I’ve told the truth by doing so.

    • rivermonster@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      5
      arrow-down
      50
      ·
      edit-2
      11 months ago

      They’re not Hamas, that’s who intentionally targets children. And then also hides behind them after terrorist attacks so as to hopefully cause more civilian deaths so people can be manipulated into outrage at the wrong people.

          • orrk@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            12
            arrow-down
            1
            ·
            11 months ago

            look, unlike the IDF, we don’t support killing 6000 children

            • rivermonster@lemmy.world
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              2
              arrow-down
              20
              ·
              11 months ago

              But really, you do by not seeking to hold Hamas accountable for all that they’ve caused. They’ll shoot rockets into Gaza hospitals as long as they rial up the antisemitism on world news. And I watched em take the bait. Same reason they’re maximizing civilian casualties by hiding in the densest urban theater of war we’ve seen.

              You shouldn’t support them.

              • orrk@lemmy.world
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                1
                arrow-down
                1
                ·
                11 months ago

                yes, Hamas should come out, and they with the IDF can have right good honorable pistol dules at noon

  • assassin_aragorn@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    28
    arrow-down
    9
    ·
    11 months ago

    Israel’s army is apparently much closer to Russia’s than the US’. This is disgusting and pathetic.

    • rottingleaf@lemmy.zip
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      8
      ·
      11 months ago

      Israel itself is culturally very similar to Russia. Living in Russia, I’ve always been amused how their public picture is so different in everything.

      • assassin_aragorn@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        7
        ·
        11 months ago

        No one’s saying the US military are a bunch of faultless angels. But there’s a certain line of morality they are expected to keep, and conduct like that is illegal. They’re expected to disobey unlawful orders, and shit like this is unlawful.

        Shit goes on at army bases and you’ll hear about soldiers being shitty off and on base, but you never see the US military devolving into petty thugs like this in active combat.

        Typically we save that for the police back home. And I wish I were being sarcastic.

    • rivermonster@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      5
      arrow-down
      63
      ·
      edit-2
      11 months ago

      Both Russia and the elected government of Gaza (Hamas) target civilians intentionally. Hamas even targets Gaza hospitals. Probably thought false flagging Israel would be great PR, and it did work well on the worldnews crew.

      I’d say Gazas elected government, and Russia are much closer.

      • ghurab@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        28
        arrow-down
        3
        ·
        11 months ago

        Demographic from Wikipedia:

        0–14 years: 44.1% 15–24 years: 21.3% 25–54 years: 28.5% 55–64 years: 3.5% 65 years and over: 2.6%

        something like 75% of all Gazans were either not born or not of voting age when the last elections were held 16 years ago.

        Goddamned time traveling Palestinians!

        • rivermonster@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          2
          arrow-down
          37
          ·
          edit-2
          11 months ago

          As though this changes the fact that they’re the officially elected government in Gaza and that 57% support them from the latest polling?

          Weird perspective.

          • orrk@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            17
            arrow-down
            3
            ·
            11 months ago

            damn, imagine you need to justify killing brown people so hard you would use Assad support numbers.

            Fun fact, there can be no accurate survey of opinion in a region controlled by a group that kills you for having the wrong one

            • rivermonster@lemmy.world
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              2
              arrow-down
              28
              ·
              11 months ago

              Fun fact, when the actual facts and empirical data don’t support your false narrative, you claim facts don’t matter and that there’s no such thing as facts.

              LOL, I also understand a false character attack, like accusing someone of supporting the killing of PoC, when your argument is factually bankrupt and poorly reasoned. Makes sense, and it suits you.

              I DO support killing all members of Hamas because they’re terrorists and intentionally target civilians and have always done so. Nice try on the libel, though.

              • orrk@lemmy.world
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                1
                arrow-down
                1
                ·
                11 months ago

                ok, for the eternally slow, there can be no accurate political polling done in an authoritarian regime, it’s like going around and asking people in Nazi Germany if they support the Nazis, what are you going to do say no and get put into the camps?

                and how is “Hamas” defined? to kill all members of Hamas you need to kill every single Palestinian to be sure

      • lolcatnip@reddthat.com
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        26
        arrow-down
        4
        ·
        11 months ago

        Anyone harping on how Hamas is the “elected” government when they haven’t had elections in, what, 16 years, is just simping for Netanyahu’s genocide. I see you felt the need to say “elected” twice just to be really obvious about it.

        • rivermonster@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          2
          arrow-down
          20
          ·
          11 months ago

          It’s important to counter these false narratives being thrown about that they’re not the official elected government with, to this day, majority support amongst residents.

          • TWeaK@lemm.ee
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            8
            arrow-down
            3
            ·
            11 months ago

            Lmfaoooo you’re a complete troll. “It’s important to counter false narratives” when every narrative you provide is clearly false.

            You are qutie clearly intentionally inciting people, and it isn’t really working in your favour here.

            • rivermonster@lemmy.world
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              2
              arrow-down
              11
              ·
              edit-2
              11 months ago

              Trying to inject reason and facts into this proHamas circle jerk isn’t trolling. But I can see how facts that conflict with false narratives could incite the guilty individuals.

              • TWeaK@lemm.ee
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                7
                arrow-down
                3
                ·
                11 months ago

                No one here is pro-Hamas.

                You are pro-terrorism, so long as the terrorists are on “your team”.

              • Goferking0@ttrpg.network
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                4
                ·
                11 months ago

                It’s not antisemitic to be anti Isreali government. Especially when they have been actively doing terrible things for years. Like targeting journalists

                • rivermonster@lemmy.world
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  1
                  arrow-down
                  5
                  ·
                  11 months ago

                  Absolutely, fuck Bibi and fuck Likud. And before October, there are a slew of war crimes they should be tired for at the ICC.

      • orrk@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        7
        arrow-down
        3
        ·
        11 months ago

        and the IDF targets civilians even when they aren’t “at war”, your point being?

      • TWeaK@lemm.ee
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        7
        arrow-down
        4
        ·
        11 months ago

        Israel targets civilians. The vast majority of buildings targeted by Israel since 7 Oct have been “power targets”, which, by their own definition, are targets that do not have significant military value but have value in that they can destablise civilian life such that the civilians might put pressure on the government to change.

        Israel are literally using violence against civilians to achieve a political goal. That is the very definition of terrorism.

        No one can argue that the events of 7 October were not terrorism. Roughly 2,000 people invaded Israel to commit terrorist acts. In response, Israel have committed their own form of terrorism and killed 20,000 people, very few of which were actually members of Hamas.

        Your argument is a near perfect example of the pot calling the kettle black.

        • rivermonster@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          2
          arrow-down
          16
          ·
          11 months ago

          Israel is using violence against Hamas. Whos goal is to maximize civilian casualties in the hopes of sparking a wider war and gaining more allies than just Quatar, Iran, Hezbolla, Houthis, Iraq, etc…

          They want another coordinated Arab state attack, just like the multiple ones that have failed in the past. Over and over, the Arab states have tried to destroy Israel. Hamas is quite clear they will only rest once Israel is destroyed and the Jews killed.

          Israel has been forced by Hamas to fight in the densest urban theater immaginable, again, because Hamas wants to maximize Palestian deaths for PR.

          Hamas strips protected targets of their legal status by co-locating. This is by intent.l and designed to spark the kind of outrage you see here among posts falling prey to this tactic and supporting terrorists.

          I’m not sure what you want Israel to do? Ignore the attack? That hasn’t worked for all rockets that have been launched at civilians in Israel. It hasn’t worked for all Hamas’s suicide bombers ans bus bombings, etc. It arguably encouraged the October attack by allowing them safe haven over and over. I’m curious what they should do instead?

          Hamas could end the violence that’s killing Palestinians today. Easily. Just stop hiding behind them and surrender. But considering they have 57% support among Gaza residents, and the PR is being effective (just look around worldnews), why would they?

          • TWeaK@lemm.ee
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            6
            arrow-down
            3
            ·
            11 months ago

            I’m not sure what you want Israel to do? Ignore the attack?

            I want Israel to wield their power and superiority in such a way that takes the moral high ground.

            Hamas invaded Israel and killed civilians and ransacked their homes.

            Israel invaded Gaza, bombing the city and killing civilians before ransacking their (vacant) homes.

            Military action should be focused on military objectives. Neither side is doing that, thus both sides should be derided for their actions in this regard. They behave differently, but both share strikingly similar flaws.

            Hamas could end the violence that’s killing Palestinians today. Easily. Just stop hiding behind them and surrender.

            Israel are far more capable at ending things right now than Hamas. If Hamas surrendered, Israel could easily come up with some other excuse to keep pressing. If Israel stopped, Hamas would not be in a position to perform another 7 Oct attack. Israel are not defending, they are very clearly on the offensive.

            At the end of the day, the real goal here is to expend ordinance and buy more, thus financing the weapons industry. An end won’t happen until profit targets are met (assuming the goals don’t just get stretched further).

            • rivermonster@lemmy.world
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              2
              arrow-down
              10
              ·
              edit-2
              11 months ago

              I’m still waiting to hear what you think they should do?

              I want Israel to wield their power and superiority in such a way that takes the moral high ground.

              That sounds nice, but there’s nothing specific or actionable. It amounts to telling them to “buck up camper” or “just take it on the chin.”

              Thr military targets operate in civilian places intentionally. Hamas wants as many dead Palestinians as possible.

              I’m not trolling, I genuinely reflect on this a lot and wonder myself what other course they have. They’ve tried ignoring the terroist attacks for ages. Or just some tiny response that does nothing to disrupt Hamas’s ability to project terror and war crimes.

              Israel are far more capable at ending things right now than Hamas. If Hamas surrendered, Israel could easily come up with some other excuse to keep pressing.

              If Hamas did and Israel kept going, then they absolutely would be guilty of warcrimes and worse. Without Hamas, there they have no legal basis for the war, and most of their targets would revert to protected status.

              I’d be with you shouting for prosecution if that happened. But I definitely disagree with you that that is how it would play out. There is not a lot of point in debating a hypothetical, though.

              • TWeaK@lemm.ee
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                2
                arrow-down
                3
                ·
                11 months ago

                That sounds nice, but there’s nothing specific or actionable.

                Ok, to be specific, I would like Israel to focus on military objectives only. Right now, they are deviating far beyond that and extending their rules of engagement, far beyond anything reasonable.

                I would also like it if Hamas focused on military objectives. Attacking a music festival with a peace motif is heinous, particularly when it is down the road from a military base.


                The Geneva convention already provides scope for dealing with bad actors who use civilian infrastructure for military purposes. Israel exploits this and attacks civilian infrastructure directly, using this exemption as an excuse without proving their postition is valid.

                Meanwhile, Hamas completely ignores everything and also attacks civilians directly.

                The methods are different, but the end result is the same.

      • filister@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        5
        arrow-down
        5
        ·
        edit-2
        11 months ago

        Oh, please tell me what you think of IDF killing their own:

        An initial IDF probe into the hostage killing incident suggests all three men were shirtless, with one carrying a makeshift white flag.

        On seeing them, one Israeli soldier shouted “terrorists!” to the other forces, initiating fire at the men, according to reports.

        While two hostages were hit immediately and fell to the ground, the third managed to escape into a nearby building where despite pleas in Hebrew, he was also shot and killed, a military official said.

        • rivermonster@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          4
          arrow-down
          16
          ·
          11 months ago

          In an environment where that’s the standard tactic of Hamas, hide behind civilians, yeah, I understand the friendly fire. This is Hamas. They blew up their own hospital, hoping ppl like worldnews would blame Israel for it… and they did.

          If you think that while hiding amongst civilians or while keeping hostages they aren’t trained to try and appear like innocents, then I don’t know how to help you. It’s literally their main tactic.

          • TWeaK@lemm.ee
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            5
            arrow-down
            3
            ·
            11 months ago

            According to the IDF, Hamas did not fire a rocket on the hospital. They attributed that to the Islamist Jihadist group - a separate organisation.

            Meanwhile, all the “tunnel networks” under Al Shifa hospital, that Israel touted as proof of Hamas using hospitals for military purposes, were in fact basement operating rooms that Israeli contractors built in the 1980’s, and so far have not been shown to be connected to any military tunnels.

          • orrk@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            5
            arrow-down
            3
            ·
            11 months ago

            wow, we are getting into these conspiracy theories, ya? well I’ll tell you that the IDF killed those 1300 Israelis.

            now for some real info: Netanyahu supported Hamas to stay in power by targeting their opposition, there would be no Hamas if not for the Ethnostate government in Israel right now.

            • rivermonster@lemmy.world
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              2
              arrow-down
              10
              ·
              edit-2
              11 months ago

              You joke, but I’ve seen sick people make that claim that the IDF killed all the victims. It’s as palatable as Alex Jones mocking the dead children.

              Now for some real info:

              Perez was winning and going to beat Bibi, publicly proclaiming that he will still pursue a two state solution with Arafat. Polls also showed strong national public support for a two state solution.

              Hamas couldn’t have that, so right before the election, they executed a series of suicide bombings and bus bombings killing many civilians (which they always target). Immediately after that, Bibi won by less than a percent. Bibi paid them back by helping them get rid of Arafat, who still (publicly at least) claimed to want a two state solution.

              Bibi and Hamas have been working together tightly and deeply ever since. They are the same people. If love to see Bibi tried for war crimes and many other Likud members.

              All of this is fact, go do the reading if you don’t believe it. Hamas made Bibi.

              • TWeaK@lemm.ee
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                3
                arrow-down
                1
                ·
                11 months ago

                Bibi and Hamas have been working together tightly and deeply ever since. They are the same people.

                Ok now I’m drinking your Kool-Aid. However, the one caveat I would make is that it isn’t really “Hamas” here, it’s Iran, encouraging Hamas. Suffice it to say, there’s lots of political puppetry going on in this region.

                The vast majority of Palestinians weren’t alive for the last Yom Kippur war - 50 years ago to the day of the 7 October holiday. Bibi was alive. It stands to reason that most Palestinians don’t even know what happened back then, let alone remembering it, but Bibi absolutely should have expected something on such a key anniversary. Instead, beforehand Bibi stirred shit with all the IDF troops, left weak border security on the day with clear single points of failure, then claimed ignorance when everything hit the fan.

                However, him directing war crimes does not absolve the Israel troops who are actually committing war crimes. Both should be punished.

                • rivermonster@lemmy.world
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  1
                  arrow-down
                  4
                  ·
                  11 months ago

                  All pre-october apartheid war crimes absolutely. They don’t change bc of October and the collective punishment of civilians war crimes and more need to be held ICC.

                  But post October and until Hamas is gone, I think proving war crimes would be exceptionally difficult. Because of how they operate and their provable intent to cause as many casualties as possible, it makes it difficult to argue protected status for most targets right now.

                  100% with you, this isn’t just Hamas, it’s Iran, Quatar, Iraq, Hezbollah (not all of Lebanon), Houthis (not all of Yemen), and on and on. Pretending this is just Hamas is a bad call for sure. Most here do it here for ignorance or to feed an intentional false narrative about an underdog.

              • orrk@lemmy.world
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                2
                arrow-down
                3
                ·
                11 months ago

                nah, Hamas only took the opportunity they had been waiting on, Bibi had to redeploy the IDF from the Gaza border in order to help pogrom the West bank animals

                • TWeaK@lemm.ee
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  1
                  arrow-down
                  1
                  ·
                  11 months ago

                  Hamas took the opportunity of striking on the 50th anniversary of the last Yom Kippur war, and Bibi had no way of seeing that coming?

  • Herbal Gamer@sh.itjust.works
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    11
    arrow-down
    2
    ·
    edit-2
    11 months ago

    Fucking CNN blocks firefox? wtf

    We apologize, but your web browser is configured in such a way that it is preventing this site from implementing required components that protect your privacy and allow you to view and change your privacy settings. This functionality is required for privacy legislation in your region. We recommend you use a different browser or disable the “EasyList Cookie” filter from your “Content Filtering” settings (found under “Settings” -> “Shields” in the Brave Browser).

    • theonyltruemupf@feddit.de
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      4
      arrow-down
      1
      ·
      11 months ago

      Don’t dehumanize people ever, please. War crimes need to be pointed out and punished, but neither nazi nor subhuman is a reasonable accusation.